Lacquered Tsuba

[sanjuro]

I have a tsuba..... a not remarkable iron tsuba that has been coated in recent times (prior to my ownership) with a layer of black lacquer. Its cashew I think. I wish to remove this lacquer. How do I do it without affecting the underlying patina if there is any and damaging the piece?

I would not usually think of doing this but the lacquer is very unsightly and far too recent to be original.

Any sensible suggestions that dont include abrasives will be most gratefully received. I will even consider suggestions of leaving well enough alone if this is thought to be an act of barbarism...... :D

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Keith,

If you posted pictures of the tsuba we might be better able to offer suggestions.

Grey

[sanjuro]

Hi Grey.

Will do.... Pics on desktop computer at home and I'm currently on the laptop in a hotel room elsewhere. Pics will be posted tomorrow.

[drbvac]

I cant imagine if it was placed in a bath of 50% lacquer thinner and 50% alcohol it could damage the iron.

 

Boiling water with baking soda will also loosen it up and you can clean it off with the acetone, for a more gentle removal

[sanjuro]

I dont know if these will help at all, but pics as promised.

[Henry Wilson]

A part of me says leave it alone. If not I would avoid chemicals at all costs. If you have to fiddle, how about trying to dry the lacquer out or leaving it in direct sunlight for a while and see if lacquer cracks and flakes off. I would avoid abrasives as lacquer is tough and you could damage the patina below.

[Ford Hallam]

That nakago ana seems a bit big. A blade that would fit that would hang over the top and bottom of the seppa-dai

 

If it is Cashew (one give away is that you can generally smell it whereas urushi once cured is odourless ) it can easily, and with no harm to the iron, be removed with paint stripper. I don't know if Nitromors is available in Australia but the one in the brown tin is the best for this problem. It's vile stuff so use outdoors ( burns skin, fumes are highly irritating etc) , it destroys rubber gloves too. Nutralise with turpentine.

[sanjuro]

Thanks Ford ....I was hoping you would offer some solution. Nitromors is not available in Australia, at least not under that name. Yes, the nakago ana is somewhat oversize, although this tsuba at only 2.7 inches is only wakizashi sized. I had thought that it was possibly a naginata tsuba or that the nakago ana had once held seki gane or a copper sleeve occasionally found on older naginata tsuba. I have a suspicion despite the temptation to dismiss it as Edo period or later in origin, that this is an older piece and with the lacquer covering it, there is no way of knowing for certain if this is so.

[Ruben]

Hi Sanjuro,

 

I would try to dont remove anything with chemicals, but putting the tsuba in your trouser pocket as often as you can.

Of course just the tsuba nothing els to preserve damaga.

After a long long time the lacquer will disappear hopefully . At the same time you can use a bamboo needle, when more experienced a horn one to remove somthing. Maybe you can try to but your tsuba in the freezer during the process of needle work, but again be carfull cause of condensation water. Keep in mind to be very very gentle to your tsuba. If there is rust, it can take hours and hours.

The most important thing to dont over do it.

 

Greetings!

 

Ruben

[ironron]

Try boiling it with caustic soda.in an old pot.

[Ford Hallam]

Paint stripper (which by it's very nature is a bunch of chemicals) will not in any way effect patina either on iron or soft metals.

 

Boiling steel tsuba in caustic soda is not to be recommended as it will break down the rust patina....so please don't do it

[Alan Morton]

Hi Keith,

Acetone will remove paint and lacquer with no harm to patina

or metal

Why don't you just take Ford Hallam's word on this subject

 

Alan.

[ububob]

Probably someone unaware of Mr. Hallam's background, experience and reputation. Still this is an interesting thread for learning what to do and what not to do.

[sanjuro]

Hang on a second........ Read my post about five above this one which says I was hoping for Ford to reply to this thread..... Dont you people read above the immediately previous post to your own? I am well aware of Ford Hallam's background and his standing on this forum, also his knowledge of tsuba and all things tsuba....ish.

I have in fact taken his suggestions and acted upon them. Thanks for all the replies guys.

[Soshin]

After reading the topic a few times I have came to the conclusion that at fundamental conservation point should be restated just so that this thread does not create some confusion. This was originally stated in the original post by Keith G. Lacquer of different types original to many very old (circa Early Edo, Momoyama, Muromachi Periods) tsuba should not be removed. My pubic service announcement has ended.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David S.

[Brian]

Keith,

Before you jump to confusions (and maybe I am wrong) but you should check that Bob's comment wasn't a reply in regard to ironron's post.

..Just saying...

 

Brian

[sanjuro]

Yes...... Thanks David.

The lacquer in this instance is most certainly not original to the piece. I did not know at the time if there was in fact original lacquer beneath the more recent coating of Cashew. This was something of a dilemma in the decision to proceed. There was not any older lacquer as it turns out, and the patina beneath the cashew is thankfully still intact. There is a little work yet to be done, stabilising the newly revealed original surface, but the result is very promising and a positive step toward a more original piece.

 

Brian

You could be quite correct there, and if you are, I retract my possibly hasty descent into confusion

[ironron]

Paint stripper (which by it's very nature is a bunch of chemicals) will not in any way effect patina either on iron or soft metals.

 

Boiling steel tsuba in caustic soda is not to be recommended as it will break down the rust patina....so please don't do it

 

Surely paint stripper..is caustic by nature..having used a lot of it in my work?

[ububob]

Hey Keith be gentle with this rude colonial. My post was intended for Ruben and the one that followed. I know you are aware of Ford Hallam's credentials and I thought his remarks would have been definitive and accepted as the end of it. Silly me, this is the NMB where threads take on a life of their own.

[sanjuro]

Hey Bob.

 

Yeah...... I finally made the right connection with the posts' references. Thanks for clarifying it though. I too forgot about the thread taking on a life of its own. Gotta keep an eye on that!!!!!!!!!!

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Ron,

 

I think that while paint stripper might be termed caustic because of the way it can burn skin etc from a chemical composition point of view the action is quite different.

 

I just a had a look on Wikipedia, it's quite a complicated mix. The description of how it works is very interesting.Here's a link

 

What is particularly helpful about paint stripper is the way it causes the paint/varnish/wax/crud to come away from the metal without dissolving and working it's way further into the metal surface.

 

Caustic soda (Sodium hydroxide) won't attack iron as such but can break down the various compounds that make up the patina. For this reason I'd be very weary of using it. It will make a right mess of soft metal patina.

 

regards,

 

Ford

[ironron]

HI ford.I stand corrected..it could destroy the patina...silly remark on my part...Love your work bye the way.

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Ron, thanks...

[Ruben]

Hi,

 

how come that nobody replays on my post?

I think the way I discribed the cleaning process is the only inoffensive, if executed carefully.

No need for chemicals in my opinion.

 

cheers!

 

Ruben

[sanjuro]

Hi Ruben

 

Bamboo needles, horn and bone etc are OK to remove rust and clean up the surface but none of them will remove lacquer (or in this case Cashew as opposed to Urushi). Walking around with a tsuba in my pocket is not really practical and I have not enough years left in my life to wait for the lacquer to be worn away by this method. :D I guess I also havent yet reached the level of eccentricity that it takes to wander around with a pocket full of tsuba. Not that there is anything wrong with the practice, which I believe is very good for bringing up the patina.

My problem since the lacquer was not original to the piece, was to remove the lacquer in order to get to the patina beneath. Having now done so thanks to the advice received here, the patina may now be brought to bloom as it were. I guess that means I'll have to wander around with the darn thing in my pocket. Oh dear........ I'm in danger of becoming that which I least want to be..... a Tsuba nutter. :D Its OK though... maybe my otherwise normal friends and the blade fraternity wont find out.

 

Cheers

[b.hennick]

Keith

I thought that they were called tsuba fussers not nutters.

I hope all turns out well. Before and after pictures will be appreciated.

[sanjuro]

Barry.

Did I say nutters?......... Typing error would you believe? Fussers it is then..... :D

I'll post pics of the tsuba when the process is complete. At the moment its looking a little dry and dull from the stripping. I'll give it a gentle and prolonged rub with a soft cloth from time to time and see where it goes from there. There is a patina, or at least a colouration of the steel beneath as well as a little rust in spots that need attention, so its an ongoing process at the moment. Luckily, I was not under the impression that this was going to be a quick fix.

I confess I'm a bit wary of making too much of this process in case some of the newer collectors think it is a common practice and try it themselves on a tsuba that should be left alone with its original lacquer.