What do you make of this? pt II.

[chuck]

What do you make of THIS?:

 

Same tsuba. Two different sellers.

 

This one I've had my eye on for a while:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEWAX:IT

 

This one just popped up yesterday:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Japanese-Samurai-sw ... 1e5c97a8ee

 

I like bats. I almost bought the one from the first seller, but I bought the "flowers on ice" tsuba instead. (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7741) I am glad now I didn't buy it. One of the reasons I didn't buy it was because $275 seemed to me to be remarkably cheap for a tsuba in that good a condition. I'm still learning.

 

What's interesting is that you've got one in really good shape, and one that's been made to look beat up, and the better looking one is $25 cheaper!!

 

peace.

 

Post Script I: Anyone have an idea who is cranking these out? I'd actually kinda like to see the wholesalers catalog!

 

Post Script II: Stay off of eBay.

[DirkO]

Hi Chuck,

 

While these tsuba are similar in design they're far from identical, so they're just based on the same theme, which is something very common with tsuba.

[chuck]

Dammit!!! Just when I think I'm getting good at spotting fakes!

 

Yes, I can see it now under close comparison - the bats are positioned slightly differently, and the leaves on the stem are in different places. Apologies to the sellers.

 

The first being kinda rounded-rectangular and the second being mokko shaped should have been an obvious clue as well.

 

Argh. I hang my head in shame. One of these days I will get it. I hope.

 

Thank you for your kind correction.

 

peace.

 

 

Can this thread be deleted? I think I've just embarrassed myself. Again.

[goose710]

Without embarrassment we would not learn!

 

I've been there countless times

Charles L. Grusovnik (aka goose710)

[sanjuro]

And do we not all of us revisit, as in our human condition we are wont to do, those places and conditions of our errors?

[watsonmil]

Dear Chuck,

There is absolutely NOTHING to be ashamed of. The Japanese used pattern books. It is quite possible to have two tsuba that are quite similar, ... but slightly different. Having said that, ... to see two unusual subject tsuba on the same venue ( ebay ) at the same time is reason to question, .... therefore NO reason NOT to question. I am not an expert on Tsuba or other fittings, ... but FAIR WARNING, ... the forgers are getting better. They may well destroy this field of collecting given a little more time and finess. I don't know about the rest of you, ... but after what I have seen lately in yanone for example, ... I am very leary about buying from just about anybody without a 100% return for ANY REASON policy. I care little what the dealer says, .... without the item in hand and EVEN then ... as I've already stated buyer be VERY wary. ... Ron Watson

 

PS> REMEMBER if you want something bad enough, ... you will often not allow yourself to see the questionable. You, .. no ALL of us are guilty of this fault. It is difficult to overcome, .... and some never do !

[chuck]

Related question:

 

Have the pattern books or copies of them ever come up for sale? How much would a pattern book go for? Where would I look for one?

 

thanks for your kind encouragement.

 

peace.

[watsonmil]

Dear Chuck,

Personally, ... I have only seen them pictured. I can't recall ever seeing one for sale, ... but that counts for little. I should imagine that unless one turns up in some used book store somewhere as a new find, ... all that are known will already be in major collections. ... Ron Watson

[ottou812]

Both looks like they were never mounted.

[Toryu2020]

An example of one page from a pattern book - found in a used book store...

-t

[Alan Morton]

Hi Chuck,

Nihontoau is owend by John Grasso from Cairns in Australia

he is an absolute straight guy and you would have no trouble

with anthing he sells. I have no interest in this business and have only

bought items from him.

Alan.

[Brian]

I am pretty sure the pattenr books can be found in Japan, in used book stores. I think they are quite pricey, but not uncommon.

 

Brian

[Mantis dude]

Pattern books are on yahoo.jp all the time. I am not sure how old they are (since I am not looking to buy them). I would think there are books that have been made say in the 1700's and 1800's etc. I think many that are for sale are probably late 1800's. In fact, I believe either it was the JSS/US or NCJSC reprinted an owari (?) pattern book over several issues (can't remember exact details) within the past few years.

 

Just a kudo's to John Grasso, I have had many positive dealings with him. He is a good guy and trustworthy.

 

I have seen several times and handled some tsuba that were almost identical. I have seen several tsuba that matched the first mantis tsuba I was given. I believe it is Aizu shoami, but It's partner is Mito. In fact, I saw more of these. The mantis just matches perfectly, the only difference was the quality of the base steel. I have read that is likely that the same smiths went back and forth from both mito and aizu.