Kozuka kanji help

[kuromido]

Hello all, can anyone help with this translation. I believe it is :

Ki ? mitsuyuki Kao but am not sure. Also, is this kanji gyosho or sosho

Or just a free hand?

 

Thanks for all of your help,

Sincerely,

Peter D

[k morita]

Hi,

 

Goto Mitsuyuki and kao

[kuromido]

Hello morita , Thanks for your amazingly fast response.

Does anyone have any information on this maker? Possibly a picture / rubbing of his signature and Kao?

I think he is a big name, should I expect it is gimei?

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Peter D

[Curran]

Peter D,

 

Surprised no one has gotten back to you further.

As Morita-san said. "Goto Mitsuyuki w/ Kao".

 

I haven't got my black belt in the Goto school and 16 sub schools....

Always got to hit the books on them. Goto Mitsuyuki doesn't appear mainline and I didn't have an obvious match with a sub-line.

Problem with the Goto is often something as easy as 'Mitsuyuki' must be looked up under an alternate reading. Easier if it is mainline. Harder if I must go trailing down centuries of sub schools.

 

ie. No promises for a match from me. signature is cleaner than most, so maybe not? gimei.

Just for Sh*ts and giggles, give me an image of the frontside that I can judge the workmanship for my own sake (privately).

Post here or PM me.

[Brian]

I think we'd all like to see a pic of the workmanship.

 

Brian

[Markus]

Mitsuyuki was one of the numerous names of Gotô Ichijô.

So the piece must be rather young (as Curran stated, the signature is cleaner as usual).

Looking forward for a pic of the front side.

 

Ichijô used this name when he was quite young, namely from the age of 21 to 33.

[kuromido]

Hi Curren, sorry for the delay in responding,

Here is a picture of the front I neglected to post. Forgive me; I have done this several times in translation assistance being focused on the kanji.

I purchased 3 kozuka around a year ago and all had a very thin coating

of clear lacquer over them? This is why the piece looks a bit slick and the cutting flat.

I had never seen this done before but strangely only a few months later I previewed the oct 22 bonhams sale in person and noticed that a very important Yasuchicka kozuka # 3079 was treated the same way. Part of the group of 3 is the Haruaki Hogan kozuka I posted not far back. I had removed the lacquer on that piece before seeing the Bonhams one and decided to leave the others alone for now even though I really don’t like it. These pieces were collected many years ago and treasured by their former owner. Please let me know what your thoughts are Here or PM and don’t be afraid to be critical. Thanks very much for your input on this and my other posts,

Sincerely,

Peter D

 

 

PS. Marcus, Thanks for the info. I just was looking in “sword fittings in the field Museum.” And found that you are correct about Goto Ichijo.

Using Mitsuyuki and several other art names. Where did you find that info and especially about the ages of use? Very interesting info.

Does anyone have a pic of a genuine mei and kao for Goto Ichijo?

Q: What does anyone think about removing the lacquer?

 

Brian, dont shoot me for the long winded post, I will keep it shorter.

[Curran]

Markus:

 

Thank you for making that link. I doubt I would have gotten the link to Ichijo.

Also thank you for all your translation work. Just yesterday, I was reading some of your translations for NBTHK on kodogu.

 

Peter D:

 

It seems you posted a photo while I was posting (now editing my post...)

In Wakayama I have two reference mei for Ichijo signing his early signature of 'Mitsuyuki'.

There is a good deal of variation between even the two reference mei, and Markus says he used this mei from 21 to 33. I have another document saying 21 to 30. Either way: definitely a time for evolving as an artist, and your kozuka signature is much closer to the second reference signature I have for him. Still, I wouldn't call it a match. But I don't feel comfortable saying 'gimei' . I'm not holding back- I just don't know.

 

When it comes to someone like Ichijo with such a lifespan and such an evolution of his workmanship, I am "out of my league" to provide meaningful response. I don't know where more Mitsuyuki reference mei for Ichijo can be found, and I am not familiar enough with his early workmanship. What little I have seen of his early work was very typical goto. Not very helpful, is it! Maybe Markus or someone else more qualified can step in.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hello Peter,

 

The information below may or may not be helpful, none the less, suggest comparing work style, materials, as well as mei characteristics.

 

Does anyone have a pic of a genuine mei and kao for Goto Ichijo?

 

http://www.tetsugendo.com/kodogu/T-130_Ichijo.html

[Ludolf Richter]

Hi!Here are 3 shoshin-mei-pics from my database.Ludolf

[Ludolf Richter]

By the way,Goto Ichijo changed his name from Mitsutaka to Mitsuyuki,when he was 20 (1811).In 1820 he took the new name Mitsuyo.Ludolf

[Curran]

Ludolph,

 

You have the reference signature and have (aside) proven to me that you are better at identifying authentic/gimei sword signatures. Call I call you out to voice an opinion on authenticity?

 

I'm just a student on this one.

 

Curran

[Brian]

Brian, dont shoot me for the long winded post, I will keep it shorter.

Why?

I love the longer and more interesting posts. No need to keep anything short.

 

I am not even an advanced novice when it comes to tosogu, but to me this looks like fine work indeed for that later time frame. Love the mixed styles too. Really like this one.

 

Brian

[Ludolf Richter]

I believe,its quite difficult to check Shoshimei vs Gimei with the above Kozuka.From my 3 examples it is clearly to be seen that young Ichijo had not yet an unique Mei.It's much more easier to fake a softmetal Mei than an iron one or even a swordssmith Mei (number of strokes,depth,etc.).The workmanship seems to be quite good,but that is true for many tosogu artists of the 19th Century,which are not as famous as the later Goto Ichijo.If I had that piece,I was going to get the opinion from the NBTHK experts.Ludolf

[Curran]

Dear Ludolph,

 

Thank you for the reply. My own conclusion was this would be a fair one for NBTHK shinsa, though the owner must decide if worth it to spend the money and a long wait time. I think a non Japan shinsa Yoshikawa NTHK team would error on the side of caution and not paper it.

 

Perhaps because of experience with members in my family working as jewelers, I have an easier time with mei signatures than sword signatures. In the past, I have followed some of your illustrated dissection of gimei sword signatures with interest.

 

I feel much more comfortable with softmetal signatures saying Yes / No. On this kozuka.... I don't know idea. I see several reasons to say 'no', but also some that make consider it *possibly* legit. Thank you for posting the reference mei.

[kuromido]

Dear Franco , Ludolf and curren,

 

I thank you all for your interest and input.

Viewing the reference that ludolf posted I noticed that even with the very different mei on each, the kao is pretty much the same as mine. Do you think that this adds anything to the possibility that this the hand of Ichijo? I have several fuchi with only a Kao, Is there a compilation of Kao with artists out there somewhere? Also at the risk of going long, Can you give me any guidance on the process of getting it papered. I know it has to be sent to Japan but have no idea how one goes about it.

 

I liked this one a lot when I got it for the imagery and workmanship. I only now know more to who “possibly” made it.

 

ALL your help is greatly appreciated,

 

Peter D

[nagamaki - Franco]

 

Viewing the reference that ludolf posted I noticed that even with the very different mei on each, the kao is pretty much the same as mine. Do you think that this adds anything to the possibility that this the hand of Ichijo?

 

Only if the work is correct, like swords, its the workmanship that confirms the mei and not the other way around.

 

Also at the risk of going long, Can you give me any guidance on the process of getting it papered. I know it has to be sent to Japan but have no idea how one goes about it.

 

There are a number of dealers that offer services for submitting items to shinsa, you'll find them listed on this site http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/sites2.htm . One side note I would add here, is to be certain to give clear specifics about shipping method and carefully packing items, if for no other reason having peace of mind. In most cases I use and request USPO Registered (insured) or USPO Express overnight mail, depending upon the item.

[kuromido]

"Only if the work is correct, like swords, its the workmanship that confirms the mei and not the other way around."

 

Hello franco,

I fully understand and agree with your statement. I am trying to find pictures of his work in various stages in his career as well as oshigata in same.

(Any further contributions would be helpful.) Thanks for the link as well. I will research it further first but, it would be a great expieriance for me

to send it for papers (however it turns out) if it all looks good.

 

THKS again, Peter D

 

BTW, How do you cut the quote like that???

[Curran]

Many dealers can handle it for you. Just be prepared for a long wait time.

 

I haven't sent anything since Juyo shinsa a few years ago and can't recommend anyone in particular at this moment. Stateside maybe Andy Quirt or Bob Benson still handle it.

Since the costs can add up, in earlier times I would send a sleeve (6 tsuba in each) and only bothered with expense of Hozon when verifying signatures. Tokubetsu Hozon can be much more expensive, so Hozon is usually makes common sense. Only problem with Hozon is that on unsigned pieces the NBTHk can sometimes be painfully minimalist in their answer, or (rarely) even wrong.

 

Just FYI: A gent with a bit of mischief in him sent unsigned pieces from matching sets were one was signed and the other was not. Kind of a mean thing to do, since both unsigned examples from the two sets came back attributed to wrong schools. Nobody is perfect, and even the NBTHK can make mistakes on unsigned pieces. Remember it is only an opinion- but their positive opinion on signatures is the gold standard.

[Brian]

Peter,

Just for the info, clicking quote gives you this

Anything written between those 2 tags comes out as a quote. You can add as many of those as you like, anywhere in your paragraph.

Just highlight any text, and click quote, and it will put the text inbetween them.

 

Btw..I wanted to mention in general that there is really no need for ppl to use quote every time, if you are replying to something directly above your post. Use the "Reply" button, not the "quote" button every time. Not directed at you, but I see it a lot.

 

Back to our regular programing.. :D

 

Brian

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hello,

 

I am trying to find pictures of his work in various stages in his career as well as oshigata in same.

(Any further contributions would be helpful.)

 

A very formal looking piece, http://seiyudo.com/KO-010122.htm

 

also, in Tosogu Machibori Meihin Shusei book by Fukushi Shigeo, you'll find a number of pages and examples of Ichijo's signed work.

[kuromido]

Hi Franco,

Thanks for the post and the link.

I dont have that book but if anyone does I sure would like to see those examples.

At any rate , Thanks for the help.

 

Cheers, Peter D

[kuromido]

Sorry for the typos!!

That is what I get for not checking.

Peter D

[Brian]

And hence that little "edit" button where you can go back and edit your own posts for grammar etc for a limited time.

 

Brian

[kuromido]

Ah, so that's what its for.

Thanks Brian.

 

Peter D