Higo tsuba?

[ROKUJURO]

Hector,

the "tourist" TSUBA is certainly not cast. Casting is a labour-intense process and is no longer used for producing numbers of small items. These TSUBA are mostly punched out from sheet metal, sometimes even cut out with a water-jet or Laser. Not much work needed afterwards for the finish!

[Hector]

4 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said:

Hector,

the "tourist" TSUBA is certainly not cast. Casting is a labour-intense process and is no longer used for producing numbers of small items. These TSUBA are mostly punched out from sheet metal, sometimes even cut out with a water-jet or Laser. Not much work needed afterwards for the finish!

Okay Jean - thank you for the clarification!

Whenever I hear 'tourist piece', I always think Meiji Era.  But, if they're cutting them out with water, then obviously it's a modern cottage industry. 😳

[ROKUJURO]

Hector,

I suspect that these newer TSUBA imitations are even made on a larger scale outside of Japan! 

[Lewis B]

54 minutes ago, Hector said:

Okay Jean - thank you for the clarification!

Whenever I hear 'tourist piece', I always think Meiji Era.  But, if they're cutting them out with water, then obviously it's a modern cottage industry. 😳

I was going to say stamped/punched but laser or water cut are probably the way these modern ones are made. 

[ROKUJURO]

Lewis,

you are probably correct.
Nowadays, this is all calculated by the factories on the basis of the intended output. The punching tools are rather expensive, but the big traditional machines they are working in, not so much. Good for large scale production.

Water-jet and Laser are modern, and they can be had for small and medium size production today. They work CNC controlled, so you need educated personnel. 

[Michael 101]

From the pictures I think that this is a Higo tsuba but that it’s not a main school work. The tagane marks around the nakago ana are only loosely based on the ones used by the 3rd Kamiyoshi master Rakuju but the work is definitely not crisp enough to be his hand. The seppa dai area is not very well shaped and overall the work is crude in comparison with that of the Kamiyoshi school. The iron surface is also of a different rougher finish. 
 

Kamiyoshi works were fashionable and expensive at the time and like all such things over the ages they were highly copied. Id say this is a late Edo Higo copy by Kumagai or other such artist but excellent value for what was paid. 

kindest regards 

Michael

 

[Hector]

22 hours ago, Michael 101 said:

From the pictures I think that this is a Higo tsuba but that it’s not a main school work. The tagane marks around the nakago ana are only loosely based on the ones used by the 3rd Kamiyoshi master Rakuju but the work is definitely not crisp enough to be his hand. The seppa dai area is not very well shaped and overall the work is crude in comparison with that of the Kamiyoshi school. The iron surface is also of a different rougher finish. 
 

Kamiyoshi works were fashionable and expensive at the time and like all such things over the ages they were highly copied. Id say this is a late Edo Higo copy by Kumagai or other such artist but excellent value for what was paid. 

kindest regards 

Michael

 

Many thanks for that very thorough analysis and explanation, Michael!

 

A lot of things make more sense now and I will definitely give the shinsa a miss. (I'm going to put three tsuba into the next one in November and was toying with the idea of adding this piece. However, I think you've just appraised it for me - thus saving me a lot of yen!)

 

Of course, I fully defer to your expert eye but I thought I should mention that the odd shape of the seppa dai seems to be, in part, due to the insertion of the shakudo edge - almost like the steel was deformed slightly as it was hammered into place.

 

Best,

Hector

[ROKUJURO]

2 hours ago, Hector said:

....I thought I should mention that the odd shape of the seppa dai seems to be, in part, due to the insertion of the shakudo edge - almost like the steel was deformed slightly as it was hammered into place.....

Hector,

there was certainly no heavy hammering involved in inserting the SHAKUDO piece! This work was often done with a piece of soft wood or leather to prevent the soft copper alloy from being deformed. 

[Hector]

11 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

Hector,

there was certainly no heavy hammering involved in inserting the SHAKUDO piece! This work was often done with a piece of soft wood or leather to prevent the soft copper alloy from being deformed. 

 

Thanks Jean!
That's my total ignorance of tsuba showing..... again! 😁

[Hector]

It had absolutely no active, red rust on it so I sparingly applied a little Renaissance Wax to keep it that way - and, wow, the patina really sprang to life!

 

Best,

Hector

[Hector]

I must confess that I hardly know anything about tsuba or the Higo school. However, since taking on board the comments on this thread, I've been doing a lot more research and it's so interesting to slowly begin to understand what my tsuba's maker was trying to emulate - even though he was basically reaching for the stars!

 

This is a genuine Rakujū from the Shibui Swords website and I can see what my guy was trying for in his own humble way.

It's guided revelations like this which make being on this forum so deeply rewarding!

[Kiko]

Found this mumei daishō, made of iron with spiral gold inlay and numbered 339–340 in the 1964 Higo Kinkō Taikan (肥後金工大鑑).
The description identifies the pattern as "Kumo-gata-tomoe-sukashi" and attributes the work to Rakuju (楽寿).

 

[ROKUJURO]

So Hector's TSUBA is probably KUMO ni TOMOE zu HACHI MOKKO GATA SUKASHI, and I was wrong. Everyday, you learn something new.....

[Hector]

1 hour ago, Kiko said:

Found this mumei daishō, made of iron with spiral gold inlay and numbered 339–340 in the 1964 Higo Kinkō Taikan (肥後金工大鑑).
The description identifies the pattern as "Kumo-gata-tomoe-sukashi" and attributes the work to Rakuju (楽寿).

 

Wow! 😳

 

Thank you Nicolas.
m(_ _)m

[Kiko]

You're very welcome, Hector; I’ve only just received this new reference book, and I’m delighted to have been able to put it to use so quickly!
 

Furthermore, now that the cloud motif is confirmed, I am quite tempted to interpret those perfectly round tomoe as a reference to the taiko Raijin uses to create the sound of thunder. In that case, the tsuba’s theme could be elegantly summed up as "the storm."
 

The spirals on "my" particular pieces seem to lend further weight to this hypothesis, as this geometric shape is frequently used to visualize invisible phenomena such as air currents, eddies, turbulence, gusts of wind, or the rapid movement of clouds. It would be Raijin and Fujin at work together !

Edited July 29 by Kiko

[Hector]

It's funny how, in this collecting field, your hopes can fly like an eagle one minute and nosedive like Icarus the next.

 

Of course, this is far more likely to occur when coupled with personal ignorance of a specialist topic and lack of experience in handling top quality examples.

 

This Higo(?) tsuba for example. I showed it to an old Japanese gentleman collector who was visiting from Kyoto and he said "Mmm - you should put this in shinsa.

(Hope goes flying straight off the radar!)

 

Later, the Tokyo based dealer the old gentleman was visiting shows up and says "Don't waste money - probably modern."
(Hope goes into a screaming death dive.)

 

Obviously, I wouldn't have experienced either of these emotional extremes if I had actually put in the vital groundwork of studying! But, even in my 60's, I still have that little kid's 'throw the dice and hope for the best' attitude. 

"Financially irresponsible" I believe my mom would have called it. 😂

[ROKUJURO]

Hector,

it is probably part of the collector's game to "hunt" down a piece that nobody had recognized before....

In my opinion, it is not irresponsible unless you invest money that is needed for your daily life. But I know that happens also.

SASANO-SENSI once came home with two VERY valuable TSUBA he just bought, and when he showed them to his wife (who was very well informed about TSUBA and knew all of her husband's trade), she immediately said 'We do not have enough money to buy these! How is that possible?' He had to admit that he took a loan on their house. Not soon after this, he sold one of these TSUBA and bought the house back.

Not really recommended unless you are SASANO MASAYUKI....

[Hector]

18 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said:

Hector,

it is probably part of the collector's game to "hunt" down a piece that nobody had recognized before....

In my opinion, it is not irresponsible unless you invest money that is needed for your daily life. But I know that happens also.

SASANO-SENSI once came home with two VERY valuable TSUBA he just bought, and when he showed them to his wife (who was very well informed about TSUBA and knew all of her husband's trade), she immediately said 'We do not have enough money to buy these! How is that possible?' He had to admit that he took a loan on their house. Not soon after this, he sold one of these TSUBA and bought the house back.

Not really recommended unless you are SASANO MASAYUKI....

Great story there, Jean!

 

If I took a risk like that, I'd end up in the dog house - both literally (having lost our apartment) and figuratively (my wife placing me there permanently, pending the divorce)!

 

Hector 😂

[ROKUJURO]

Well, that only depends on how many rooms your dog house has....

[MauroP]

Thank you, Jean. I had to tell that story to my wife—with due respect to the proportions, of course.

[Curran]

7 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

SASANO-SENSI once came home with two VERY valuable TSUBA he just bought, and when he showed them to his wife (who was very well informed about TSUBA and knew all of her husband's trade), she immediately said 'We do not have enough money to buy these! How is that possible?' He had to admit that he took a loan on their house. Not soon after this, he sold one of these TSUBA and bought the house back.

Not really recommended unless you are SASANO MASAYUKI....

 

That was me in 2007.

And no, I am not Sasano Masayuki.

 

The one I ended up selling did go Tokubetsu Juyo.

Oh well.

[eternal_newbie]

5 minutes ago, Curran said:

The one I ended up selling did go Tokubetsu Juyo.

 

My lifelong dream is to someday raise a piece from Hozon/TH to TokuJu. I've got a long way to go yet; for starters, I need to be able to afford one with that kind of potential, to say nothing of being able to recognize said potential.

[ROKUJURO]

1 hour ago, Curran said:

That was me in 2007.

And no, I am not Sasano Masayuki.

 

The one I ended up selling did go Tokubetsu Juyo.

Oh well.

Curran,

the little story was told to me in the late 1990's by Eckhard Kremers, who was very close with SASANO-SENSEI, and it happened earlier in his career. SASANO was the godfather of Paul Kremers.

I was honoured to meet SASANO-SENSEI not long before he passed. 

[Curran]

2 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

Curran,

the little story was told to me in the late 1990's by Eckhard Kremers, who was very close with SASANO-SENSEI, and it happened earlier in his career. SASANO was the godfather of Paul Kremers.

I was honoured to meet SASANO-SENSEI not long before he passed. 

 

I know Herr Kremers and his son Paul to a lesser extent. I never knew Sasano-sensei, as he passed slightly before I got serious about collecting. I was not yet into Tosogu. That came later.

 

Hindsight is that it would have been better to keep the sword and toss the house. The Great Recession was a tough one where I lived.

While I don't believe in going All In on Art, it would have been better if I had. Buy that small Modigliani back when I could have. Get the smaller Warhol painting with my family name on it.

Again, hindsight. 

    David Rockefeller quote, "I think of art as the highest level of creativity. To me, it is one of the greatest sources of enjoyment"

I envy those willing to go All In on Art.

 

 

[Toryu2020]

Well, re-read my Tsuba - An Aesthetic Study ad sure enough there it is. Thanks Tim. Never knew there was thought to be a connection, even having read this before. Gotta love the NMB!

[Hector]

I'm loving the great anecdotes and dialogue in this thread - so I'm also going to try and turn it into a proper, personal learning experience. I want to be able to understand what the experts can tell me and show me.

 

For example, the Japanese dealer said of my tsuba "Sukashi is deformed - not sharp. Thats not Rakujū's style."

Below is my tsuba on the left and the acknowledged Rakujjū (courtesy of Nicolas @Kiko) on the right.

 

i can see some definite differences in outline but it would be really useful if someone could point out the deformity to me. I want to learn!

 

Best,

Hectirp