Can anyone identify these Menuki

[Trav4ever]

Hey guys, I have a pair of Menuki that im trying to learn more about, I believe they have a cane, a sash and the item looks like a sideways pouch to me, but it doesn’t seem positioned right to be a pouch. Can anyone identify the items represented on these Menuki? I did the magnet test on these and they are non magnetic. These are covered in oil, dirt and grime. I also believe they are coated in a dark brown wax. At someone’s point in the past the wrap of the handle was heavily coated in a brown or black waxy substance. After I removed the wrap that was clearly severely frayed to get the menuki I discovered someone went to town with the stuff. I’m also trying to lightly clean them with mild soapy water and soft tooth brush. A ridiculous amount of gunk and grime has come off these I’d like to get them cleaned to rewrap the handle. Thanks guys

 

Edited July 8 by Trav4ever

[ROKUJURO]

Travis,

you are posting in the FOR SALE section. Perhaps try in the TOSOGU section with photos made on a plain DARK background so details become visible.

[Trav4ever]

@ROKUJURO I’m sorry about that. I thought I had posted in the Tosogu section. I’m not the best with technology, I’ll need to try harder to make sure the posts I make go where they need to. Again sorry about that. I’ll try to find a black background as well.

[ROKUJURO]

Travis,

no need to apologize!  Just trying to help! You wouldn't get the desired response in the FOR SALE section!

[Scogg]

I've got your post relocated to the tosogu section @Trav4ever. No worries

Best of luck. 
-Sam

[Scogg]

What first came to mind was riding crops and some  horse tack. Though I’m not confident in my guess because the crop looks more “fat” than I am used to seeing 

 

 

[Trav4ever]

@ROKUJURO I believe you’re right on that point. I edited the post with a new picture of them on a black background. Hopefully this helps. @Scogg thank you for moving the post. I appreciate that.

 

[Trav4ever]

@Scogg oh that’s interesting. I can picture what you’re saying about the riding crops. You may be right. 

[Spartancrest]

       Some riding crop menuki examples - looks like they like to add all sorts of little "extras"    https://www.eldreds.com/auction-lot/pair-of-gilt-shakudo-menuki-in-the-form-of-an-abu_00de908440         https://www.Japanese-swords.com/menuki-gallery/pages/015.htm

 

There is a riding crop Kogai here: https://www.tosoguya.com/ko_goto_riding_crop_kogai.html

Edited July 9 by Spartancrest
MORE LINKS

[Jesta]

7 hours ago, Scogg said:

What first came to mind was riding crops and some  horse tack. Though I’m not confident in my guess because the crop looks more “fat” than I am used to seeing 

 

 

This was my first thought too. Seems like a common theme. The things behind it could be stylised stirrups. 

[Scogg]

Whatever item behind the “crop” is; it has the “four diamonds” kamon often associated with the Takeda clan. (Popular kamon were frequently reused, so this is not necessarily a connection). 

Below is an alternative path to look into, although with what looks like rope in the back, I am still favoring the idea that it’s a horse crop, parts, and tackle. 

Alternatively, maybe a walking cane? It would explain why the “crop” looks thick. Images below from my only menuki book:

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Looks like a pair of Abumi stirrups as suggested above, against leather Aori side flaps (with Kamon in central position). Horse tack indeed.

[Trav4ever]

@Spartancrest @Jesta @Scogg @Bugyotsuji thank you all very much! I do have to jump on the same conclusion that this set is indeed what you all suggesting it is. Very interesting about the Takeda clan four diamonds embellished on it and sitting right on the aori side flaps too. I was able to find a couple of sets of Takeda clan Menuki and interestingly enough the set I “discovered” on my old Wakizashi have a very similar style. Compared to the examples I’ve seen online they have the same detailing down to the small lines the smith made. Not saying they are really a Takeda clan samurai’s item, but they sure look like they could be especially from doing some research Takeda Shingen was known for his Calvary forces and tactics. I said discovered the menuki because they were/ are so dirty that until I removed them from the wrap and started to soak them in soapy water and just scrubbing lightly once in a while with a soft toothbrush there was very little detail to go off of. Quite a lot of grime and possibly pine resin has been lifting off just from the soapy water. The wrap on the handle was in very poor condition and it was about to break in a couple places. It was loose as well, but the wrap was done in kusune. I believe some of that transfered onto the menuki and has collected quite a bit of gunk and grime. The Kusune wrap while unwrapping it was interesting as the wrapping broke and crumbled like small twigs while taking it off. Very highly degraded and brittle. 

[Geraint]

Dear Travis.

 

Just one more thought to investigate, menuki sometimes depict falconry accoutrements and while I am sruggling to fit the cane into that the tassels certainly would be in the ball park.

 

All the best.

Edited July 10 by Geraint

[ROKUJURO]

5 hours ago, Trav4ever said:

......but they sure look like they could be especially from doing some research Takeda Shingen was known for his Calvary forces and tactics..... 

Hi Travis,

Calvary is not exactly the same as CAVALRY. 

[Trav4ever]

@Geraint, I will do some digging on falconry related menuki. Thank you for the tip. @ROKUJURO ah yes, two very different things. That is what happens when I don’t double check in detail my grammar before posting. lol.

[Scogg]

Falconer utensils is one of my favorite motif’s. I don’t see them very often.

 

At the link below, if you scroll down a ways. Notice the tool “EGOUSHI (Feed Box)” has a mon, and looks similar to your menuki. But in this link, the item that looks like a rod, the  “BUCHI”, has a specific purpose of cleaning the beak and cleaning feathers, it is sharpened on one end and brush-like on the other.

https://www.falconryheritage.org/uploads/itemUploads/2075/NakajimaManuscript-IAF2009.pdf

 

Here’s a nice example from the same book that I referenced above:
(Edit: Incorrect caption. Example is riding crop and riding equipment. Comments below.) 

 

 

 

I’m still leaning horse equipment. But it’s interesting to compare and try to figure it out. 
Best,

-Sam 

Edited July 11 by Scogg
More detail + link

[Bugyotsuji]

Oh wow that link is amazing, Sam. Many thanks. One of Tokugawa Ieyasu’s favourite pastimes. A world about which I knew little.  

(Now after many years and at a stroke I know what the original purpose of four objects found at antiques markets really are!)
 

Also I have a set of falconry menuki but these look quite different again.(See below)

 

PS The caption to your photo just above looks mistaken. That’s a riding crop and two ‘shiodé’ fasteners for a Kura saddle.

[Bugyotsuji]

Efugo, bait or captured game containers, for Takajo falconry.

 

[Scogg]

12 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

PS The caption to your photo just above looks mistaken. That’s a riding crop and two ‘shiodé’ fasteners for a Kura saddle.

I appreciate the correction, thank you. I should have known because I have a sword with very similar menuki, that are the same style shiode fasteners (but without crop). I’m quite fond of them. You helped me identify them here a couple years ago in another thread.

*** @Bugyotsuji I have edited my comment to add the thread, some other examples can be found there. I've learned so much since then! https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/45159-help-me-identify-menuki/. I actually have some mixed info in my notes, because someone once told me they were falconers tools. Rereading that old thread, I should have never doubted ya'll; and it's funny how time and repetition can muddy the waters of memory.***

That explains why these came up when I searched my images for “falconers”. But thankfully they’re still relevant. 

 

Thanks again!

-Sam 

 

Edited July 11 by Scogg
*** Added link ***

[Trav4ever]

@Scogg thank you for the link. I studied it a bit. It’s difficult for me to determine if they are horse tack as you @Bugyotsuji mentioned previously, but I am leaning towards it being horse tack after I looked at images of the items Bugyotsuji mentioned were depicted on the menuki I have. With that being said I do see the resemblance and possibility of falconry being the motif. I could see a feed box, although the shape seems a little smashed and a little different than what I’ve seen, but it’s possible. The rope could represent a leash as well. The bamboo stick through the middle could possibly be  a stick to guild a falcon in flight, however there papers head isn’t depicted. Very interesting stuff. I do quite enjoy the falconry concept as I am an avid bird watcher and particularly enjoy watching raptors. 

[Trav4ever]

I was also curious if you fine folks had any idea of how I could try to better clean these menuki without destroying their historic value. I do want to eventually get the handle rewrapped as the handle, Ray skin and Menuki all appear to be in very good reusable condition. The Kashira and fuchi however are iron and haven’t done well to the rest of time. The kashira is all but eaten through by rust. I’ll probably track down some original brass floral designed hardware that somewhat fits the original theme if possible.

[Jake6500]

As a general rule you don't usually want to risk cleaning or modifying anything in this hobby, however you could use hot water over a wooden (NOT METAL) toothpick to pick out dirt/grime or even better, a cotton Q-tip dipped in a hot water and dish soap solution (go light on the dish soap and let the water do most of the work). Make sure to dry thoroughly with a micro-fibre cloth afterward to avoid corrosion.

 

Do NOT use any sort of abrasive or chemical polish or cleaning solution.

Edited July 11 by Jake6500

[Bugyotsuji]

Here’s a tsuba for reference.

[Trav4ever]

@Jake6500 thank you for the information. I have been using warm water and mild soap along with using a damp q-tip in a rolling motion consistently. It’s lifted virtually no gunk or grime. The q-tip occasionally lifts yellow coloration, but it doesn’t seem to be taking down any of the build up. There’s a lot of green corrosion all over the piece. I did take your advice and dipped a wooded toothpick in warm water and proceeded to lightly trace over the grooves. It didn’t break up anything, but got caught on all the compacted gunk and grime. I then took a tooth pick dipped it in isopropyl alcohol and did the same thing I did with water. Almost immediately a very light tan in color substance began coming right out of the grooves almost a dry dirt or sand like texture. I’m unsure what this stuff is, but it’s very thick and coating. I’ve noticed from just examining the menuki there appears to be many layers and I am unsure what the layers are. If they are oil and grime build up or if it’s patina. The only thing I know is these are the dirtiest set of menuki I’ve seen online and I purposely tried to find very soiled menuki. Nothing comes close. To be fair the ray skin was virtually black and smooth being filled in with dirt and grime. I removed an enormous amount of gunk from the ray skin to get it somewhat clean. On the plus side it looks like all the gunk build up has made a protective barrier over the materials. Here are the results of two days of dedicated cleaning with soapy water and a q-tip along with using the toothpick for the grooves. 

[Trav4ever]

@Bugyotsuji I’d agree with you on your conclusion, the design looks spot on with the horse tack. The Wakizashi the menuki came off of I have been told by a couple sword polishers I’ve sent pictures of it to and received emails back came to the same conclusion that it’s 16th to 17th century. I’m thinking the Menuki are of the same age. Doing a little research into the Takeda clan it seems they were at their peak of power during the time frame the sword was being carried. It makes me really wonder if this Wakizashi could’ve been carried by a member of the elite samurai Calvary of that same time frame. With it looking to represent horse tack as you’ve proven to me without a doubt and what appears to be the four diamonds in one diamond Takeda clan symbol.

[Trav4ever]

@Bugyotsuji doing some research this is a Takeda clan menuki. The one I have obviously being a different motif has a similar design style.