Trav4ever

@Bugyotsuji doing some research this is a Takeda clan menuki. The one I have obviously being a different motif has a similar design style.

@Bugyotsuji I’d agree with you on your conclusion, the design looks spot on with the horse tack. The Wakizashi the menuki came off of I have been told by a couple sword polishers I’ve sent pictures of it to and received emails back came to the same conclusion that it’s 16th to 17th century. I’m thinking the Menuki are of the same age. Doing a little research into the Takeda clan it seems they were at their peak of power during the time frame the sword was being carried. It makes me really wonder if this Wakizashi could’ve been carried by a member of the elite samurai Calvary of that same time frame. With it looking to represent horse tack as you’ve proven to me without a doubt and what appears to be the four diamonds in one diamond Takeda clan symbol.

@Jake6500 thank you for the information. I have been using warm water and mild soap along with using a damp q-tip in a rolling motion consistently. It’s lifted virtually no gunk or grime. The q-tip occasionally lifts yellow coloration, but it doesn’t seem to be taking down any of the build up. There’s a lot of green corrosion all over the piece. I did take your advice and dipped a wooded toothpick in warm water and proceeded to lightly trace over the grooves. It didn’t break up anything, but got caught on all the compacted gunk and grime. I then took a tooth pick dipped it in isopropyl alcohol and did the same thing I did with water. Almost immediately a very light tan in color substance began coming right out of the grooves almost a dry dirt or sand like texture. I’m unsure what this stuff is, but it’s very thick and coating. I’ve noticed from just examining the menuki there appears to be many layers and I am unsure what the layers are. If they are oil and grime build up or if it’s patina. The only thing I know is these are the dirtiest set of menuki I’ve seen online and I purposely tried to find very soiled menuki. Nothing comes close. To be fair the ray skin was virtually black and smooth being filled in with dirt and grime. I removed an enormous amount of gunk from the ray skin to get it somewhat clean. On the plus side it looks like all the gunk build up has made a protective barrier over the materials. Here are the results of two days of dedicated cleaning with soapy water and a q-tip along with using the toothpick for the grooves.

I was also curious if you fine folks had any idea of how I could try to better clean these menuki without destroying their historic value. I do want to eventually get the handle rewrapped as the handle, Ray skin and Menuki all appear to be in very good reusable condition. The Kashira and fuchi however are iron and haven’t done well to the rest of time. The kashira is all but eaten through by rust. I’ll probably track down some original brass floral designed hardware that somewhat fits the original theme if possible.

@Scogg thank you for the link. I studied it a bit. It’s difficult for me to determine if they are horse tack as you @Bugyotsuji mentioned previously, but I am leaning towards it being horse tack after I looked at images of the items Bugyotsuji mentioned were depicted on the menuki I have. With that being said I do see the resemblance and possibility of falconry being the motif. I could see a feed box, although the shape seems a little smashed and a little different than what I’ve seen, but it’s possible. The rope could represent a leash as well. The bamboo stick through the middle could possibly be a stick to guild a falcon in flight, however there papers head isn’t depicted. Very interesting stuff. I do quite enjoy the falconry concept as I am an avid bird watcher and particularly enjoy watching raptors.

@Geraint, I will do some digging on falconry related menuki. Thank you for the tip. @ROKUJURO ah yes, two very different things. That is what happens when I don’t double check in detail my grammar before posting. lol.

@Spartancrest @Jesta @Scogg @Bugyotsuji thank you all very much! I do have to jump on the same conclusion that this set is indeed what you all suggesting it is. Very interesting about the Takeda clan four diamonds embellished on it and sitting right on the aori side flaps too. I was able to find a couple of sets of Takeda clan Menuki and interestingly enough the set I “discovered” on my old Wakizashi have a very similar style. Compared to the examples I’ve seen online they have the same detailing down to the small lines the smith made. Not saying they are really a Takeda clan samurai’s item, but they sure look like they could be especially from doing some research Takeda Shingen was known for his Calvary forces and tactics. I said discovered the menuki because they were/ are so dirty that until I removed them from the wrap and started to soak them in soapy water and just scrubbing lightly once in a while with a soft toothbrush there was very little detail to go off of. Quite a lot of grime and possibly pine resin has been lifting off just from the soapy water. The wrap on the handle was in very poor condition and it was about to break in a couple places. It was loose as well, but the wrap was done in kusune. I believe some of that transfered onto the menuki and has collected quite a bit of gunk and grime. The Kusune wrap while unwrapping it was interesting as the wrapping broke and crumbled like small twigs while taking it off. Very highly degraded and brittle.

@Scogg oh that’s interesting. I can picture what you’re saying about the riding crops. You may be right.

@ROKUJURO I believe you’re right on that point. I edited the post with a new picture of them on a black background. Hopefully this helps. @Scogg thank you for moving the post. I appreciate that.

@ROKUJURO I’m sorry about that. I thought I had posted in the Tosogu section. I’m not the best with technology, I’ll need to try harder to make sure the posts I make go where they need to. Again sorry about that. I’ll try to find a black background as well.

Hey guys, I have a pair of Menuki that im trying to learn more about, I believe they have a cane, a sash and the item looks like a sideways pouch to me, but it doesn’t seem positioned right to be a pouch. Can anyone identify the items represented on these Menuki? I did the magnet test on these and they are non magnetic. These are covered in oil, dirt and grime. I also believe they are coated in a dark brown wax. At someone’s point in the past the wrap of the handle was heavily coated in a brown or black waxy substance. After I removed the wrap that was clearly severely frayed to get the menuki I discovered someone went to town with the stuff. I’m also trying to lightly clean them with mild soapy water and soft tooth brush. A ridiculous amount of gunk and grime has come off these I’d like to get them cleaned to rewrap the handle. Thanks guys

@Scogg I was 95% it was a fake. It didn’t seem right, but I thought I’d pass it by more informed individuals. The guy who’s selling it is convinced it’s authentic Japanese and has a ridiculously high price set on it. I just wanted to be certain it has no legitimacy of being authentic before I passed on it.

Is this real or a fake Japanese sword.

@ROKUJURO for whatever reason, it isn’t letting me upload any images. The site keeps declining them. However my very first post created on NMB I posted a lot of pictures of the Waki. A few people chimed in as I asked if it was real or a fake. I think if you are interested you can click my account and open it as I’ve only posted two threads. Would love to hear your opinion on authenticity as well. It was a gift from my significant other on vacation. I have $0.00 dollars invested in it at this time. Ok I take that back probably $50.00 invested from the cleaning kit, but that’s it.

@ROKUJURO

@ROKUJURO this is everything it came with. Nothing fits tightly, meaning everything is loose on the Waki. None of the pieces really match each other either. That’s why I suspect what I suspect.

@ROKUJURO thank you for the insight on the Tsuba. As long as the Waki is authentic that’s currently all I care about. Nothing about the Waki I received makes much sense in terms of the furniture it came with. I think someone just put a bunch of extra parts they had laying around to make a complete sword.

@ROKUJURO it’s 100% cast iron. You were right. I did some research and discovered why they carry little value. This is the Tsuba that came with the Waki I was gifted. I actually found an identical Tsuba online for 109.00 on a popular auction site and many more similar designs on different style Tsuba styles and sizes. I almost wonder if this is actually an Edo period Tsuba or a modern one. I’m not sure.

@ROKUJURO I understand what you mean via the photos. I took about 30 photos at different angles under light and those are the best I could manage. It’s more noticeable to the naked eye, but still difficult to decipher if it’s an old signal or as @Bugyotsuji said may be Gimei that has possibly been hammered off. I’m still learning about Japanese swords as this is my first, but I’m greatly enjoying learning the subject and wish I’d gotten into it earlier. The Wakizashi was a gift and was bought at an antique store a couple months ago. Unfortunately it was not only neglected, but someone has obviously attempted to sand rust off the blade at one point which has left a lot of scratches. It then re rusted over pretty bad. I bought a cleaning set for it and have been letting it soak a few minutes here and there with Choji oil. Also using powdered antler and gently wiping the blade down over and over a lot of rust and what appears to be build up old oil has come off and it’s much nicer looking now. The Hamon is visible on both sides however you have to have it under light to be able to really see it well enough to see what it used to look like. Regardless I’m pretty happy with the sword especially since I didn’t have to pay for it. The Tsuba on it is a dragon motif which I quite like. Especially after I was able to scratch away the massively built up rust that was also hiding a lot of detail. It was almost like an excavation on the Tsuba. Where it looked smooth was actually rust and grime filling in lines and pockets. After scraping those out and discovering what was underneath I’ve really become interested in collecting Tsuba now as well.

@Bugyotsuji my mistake. I meant oiling with choji oil.

I had this newly acquired Wakizashi apart for some piling and noticed in the lighting faint markings. Moving the handle around under the light made it look like there is just hints of a signature. Unfortunately nothing I can make out to confirm it’s actually a signature or just unusual markings in the steel. What are your guys thoughts? This is my first sword and I am very much an amateur.

That seems to check out. From the camera flash you can certainly tell someone has scratched the surface of the blade quite a bit. Maybe it’s able to be fixed with restoration, but I’m not sure and at 109.00 an inch it’d be quite a bill.

That’s interesting about having probably examined it before. Your information seems to line up with what I know. It was purchased at an antique mall in Williamsburg. The seller has a lot of civil war era knives, swords, and even a few firearms from what I understand.