Shippo pattern or star maps?

[FlorianB]

I never doubted that the stars in the sky are the same seen in Europe, America or Japan.

But the way stargazers have connected the stars since ancient times to interpret images within them varies across different cultures as Sam pointed out.

 

With a little research (without AI) there’s another example of traditional Chinese star map in higher resolution: 
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Suzhou_star_cartography.jpg

Concerning the Big Dipper which seems important to some members – in a wikipedia listing of traditional Chinese star maps (  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_star_maps ) there are  several entries that mention the Big Dipper.  
So it must have been known in old Japan, too.

At last. 

 

Edited July 4 by FlorianB

[Dan tsuba]

Well just some more interesting stuff.

 

So perhaps concerning the orientation of the holes and slots depicting constellations on tsuba, the orientation of the motif may have something to do with the time of year that the craftsman that made the tsuba was looking at the constellation.

 

As an example of this,  I asked the question from AI on the internet -  what does the big dipper appear like over Japan.

The response is in quotes below-

 

"Over Japan, the Big Dipper appears as a prominent northern asterism, easily identifiable by its ladle shape of seven bright stars. Known culturally as Hokutō Shichisei (Northern Dipper), its position and orientation in the night sky shift depending on the season and time of night.  

 

Because Japan lies between latitudes 24°N and 45°N, the Big Dipper behaves like a giant wheel turning counterclockwise around the North Star (Polaris). Its appearance changes throughout the year:  

 

Spring: The Dipper is high in the northeastern to overhead sky at dusk, appearing upright with the handle curving downward from right to left.  

 

Summer: It shines high in the western or northwestern sky after sunset, appearing to tip or stand on the edge of its bowl.  

 

Autumn: The asterism dips closer to the northern horizon and appears upside down, sometimes resting flat on the bottom of its bowl.  

 

Winter: It appears low in the northern to northeastern sky, beginning to sweep back upward in a nearly vertical position.  

 

Because of Japan's relatively southern location compared to regions like Scandinavia, the lowest parts of the handle may dip very close to the northern horizon during the fall, but it remains visible year-round.  

 

Historically, the stars have played a major role in Japanese folklore, Shintoism, and Buddhism, where the asterism is often associated with the god Amenominakanushi or the Bodhisattva Marici."  

  

  

[Bugyotsuji]

There is a fascinating museum in Hagi, (Yamaguchi) called the Meirin Gakusha, a former Meiji school. On the second floor can be found the Ogawa Collection of Edo Period paraphernalia. His Bakumatsu guns and cannons are amazing! One room is devoted to medicine for example, and another to astronomy, each room filled with genuine old materials that he collected during his lifetime.

 

イメージギャラリー｜萩・明倫学舎

See two bottom images...

[Dan tsuba]

I don’t know. 

 

So, next time a tsuba with holes and slots (which I am certain those holes and slots depict constellations and not incomplete Shippo type patterns) gets sent in for shinsa what will the experts say? 

 

Will they say (and I quote from Piers post referring to a post from Mauro that showed (in my opinion) a constellation type tsuba that went through shinsa- 

 

“Shippō Mon (Chirashi) Sukashi Tsuba 

七宝文散透鐔 

(Scattered) Shippō pattern perforations” 

 

Or will the shinsa panel maybe now recognize that those holes and slots may represent something else? 

 

I mean just some more interesting stuff to present as food for thought! 

 

[Kiko]

For what it's worth (which isn't much), I tend to side with the "believers" in this controversy—I do see constellations.
That said, I really wonder why the stars have such a small diameter compared to the connecting lines; I feel that detail does indeed open the door to dispute.

To add another example to the more obvious constellations, here is one (seller's photo) whose style I quite like.

 

[Kiko]

Regarding this last piece, I wonder what the shape of the kozuka-ana might represent.
Could it be a hat, with the tsuba being a reference to Dutch sailors?

Edited Saturday at 08:11 PM by Kiko

[Dan tsuba]

Well, Nicolas;

 

As I see it, the stars (small holes) are not the important thing on the tsuba. 

 

The slots interconnecting those holes that show a pattern (a constellation) that the small holes (stars) make is the important motif design on the tsuba. 

 

But that is just my opinion. 

[Kiko]

Indeed, Dan, that is an interpretation that strikes me as entirely defensible.

[MauroP]

2 hours ago, Kiko said:

Regarding this last piece, I wonder what the shape of the kozuka-ana might represent.

Possibly the representarion of a bat (flying in the night sky)

[Kiko]

It’s an appealing idea, but I’m having trouble shaking the thought of the hat now.
Am I imagining things, or does someone else see it too?

 

[Dan tsuba]

Mauro, 

 

In a previous post on this thread you stated “I don't think this type of pattern has anything to do with stars,...”. 

 

But you think the picture of the kozuka-ana shown by Nicolas is “Possibly the representation of a bat (flying in the night sky)”. 

 

I agree with Nicolas, and I can see the type of hat in the kozuka-ana that he is referring to.

[MauroP]

WESTERN ART MESSAGE BOARD
An unusual depiction of Voodoo practice in Reinassance Italy

I wish to share my finding of a painting portraing a puppet stinged with pins in a well known black magic ritual:

 

   - Sorry, the subject is Saint Sebastian, quite a common subject in religious art of Renaissance.
I know very well the saints, are always depicted with a halo behind their head...
   - The presence of arrows clearly point to  a scene of martyr persecution.
When I was a boy I used to shot with the bow, and the arrows were disposed differently on the target!
   - Voodoo religion was not practiced in XVI century Italy.
I know what I see. Maybe the next time such a painting will be submitted to National Gallery appraisers it will be correctly denominated "Voodoo magic" instead of "Saint Sebastian"!

 

- ...

[Spartancrest]

4 hours ago, Kiko said:

I wonder what the shape of the kozuka-ana might represent.

Could it also represent the handle found on a tansu?   or is this a big smile? 

[FlorianB]

Looks like some kind of worm with a thick belly.
Maybe a marine creature as this manta ray?

 

 

Or something completely different like an idea from "The Little Prince" 

 

 

I wonder if it is a standard kozuka-ana and the filling was continued on the plate as an overlay in this particular shape.

[Kiko]

Thanks, Mauro, for giving me my first smile of this Sunday morning; though I suspect that scribble is a VHS-quality clip taken from an old R.E.M. music video—the Louvre actually displays a screenshot of it in the MTV wing.
 

Dale, nice try, but everyone knows that drawer technology was only imported to Japan quite recently—plus, this object is clearly molded!
 

Dan, thanks for the support. But to be perfectly honest, I don't think Mauro was questioning the idea that this specific type of depiction could represent a constellation.
 

In fact, all things considered, the theory Florian suggested—that it’s a tribute to Exupéry-san—seems the most likely to me; it’s corroborated by the presence of his lucky rosary, without which, as everyone knows, he never flew a mission for the Bakufu postal service.

 

[Dan tsuba]

My recent purchase-

 

[Dan tsuba]

So, what constellations do I think are shown above in the tsuba that I purchased? 

 

Now, obviously, the Japanese added 1 or 2 (or more?) minor stars to some of their constellations which the Greeks didn’t do.  And they also didn’t necessarily connect the star patterns together as the Greeks did to form their constellations.

 

But the general layout of the stars (constellations) no matter how you connect those stars together, is nonetheless unmistakable. 

 

The constellation (in its orientation shown on the tsuba) at the top of the tsuba is the Little Dipper (Ursa Minor). 

 

The constellation (actually a star cluster) shown at the bottom of the tsuba is the Pleiades. 

 

My opinion, and I could be incorrect. 

 

But they are definitely constellations.

[Scogg]

To me, I see evenly spaced dots in an incomplete shippo pattern.
 

Personally I struggle to make my brain see either Ursa Minor or the Pleiades, when the dots are so evenly spaced. I find it easier to complete the grid with my imagination, and then it becomes clearly shippo.

 

Im not saying I’m correct... Im no expert. But if this specific pattern is a known and recognized Japanese constellation, it should be fairly easy to match it one-to-one and star-for-star with other depictions of the same constellations; and I just don’t see that here. 
 

I tend to lean on the Occam's razor approach,

-Sam 

 

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hi Sam!

I see what you are saying.

But remember, the area on a tsuba is limited to make a motif.

I think the main idea in these constellation type tsuba is to show the pattern that the stars make.

Those patterns of stars are easily recognizable to those of us that were, at one time, in the hobby of astronomy.

As far as the minor stars that the Japanese used to add to their pattern of constellations (which the Greeks didn't use) I would have to refer to my very accurate and specific star charts that I used about 25 years ago.

Unfortunately, those books of star charts are not here with me in Wyoming.  They are in my other place in Arizona.

Onward!

[Scogg]

On some of these examples, I do see constelations. 

The examples where the dots are connected by straight clean lines, I see constelations. 

On examples where the dots are more evenly spaced and connected by a pedal shaped line, I see shippo. 

Some possibilities; it's one, the other, neither, or maybe both 
-Sam

 

 

 

[FlorianB]

What's this? Milky Way?

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/25699

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all! 

 

So, let’s take a look at the tsuba that I call star maps. 

 

It is obvious (to me) that the tsuba craftsmen were not trying to make an astronomically correct interpterion of the distance between the stars. 

 

I believe what the artisans wanted to show was the general pattern that the stars made when they were interconnected. 

 

As an example, let’s take the constellation Cassiopeia with its easily identifiable “W” shape. 

 

Below I have shown a tsuba with the constellation Cassiopeia on the bottom of the tsuba. 

 

Then I have shown a star chart and pictures of the Cassiopeia constellation taken from this website- 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassiopeia_(constellation)

 

Now, adding some minor stars or NGC (nebula or clusters) to the “W” of Cassiopeia (as I believe the Japanese did – unlike the Greeks) you get the general pattern of the “W” of Cassiopeia shown on the tsuba below.

 

Personally, I don't think that is a coincidence.

 

 

[Scogg]

What strikes me as unlikely is the choice of a uniform grid to represent stars.
 

Stars are one of the least uniform things people observe in the natural world. To the naked eye, they're scattered irregularly across the sky, with varying brightness and spacing. For centuries, artists across many cultures depicted them that way; as individual points or stylized star shapes placed where they looked visually appropriate, not as evenly spaced rows.
 

A grid, by contrast, is an abstract, man-made pattern associated with order, measurement, weaving, architecture, or decoration. If someone intended to depict stars, deliberately arranging them into a regular lattice would be an odd artistic decision because it removes the very characteristic that makes a star-filled sky recognizable: its randomness.
 

Could someone intentionally stylize stars into a grid? Of course. But if the question is what we'd expect from a historical depiction of the night sky, a regular grid would be the exception, not the rule. The burden is on explaining why an artist would replace a naturally irregular pattern with one of the most artificial geometric arrangements possible.

We don't have to agree, but I simply do not see it.
-Sam

[Dan tsuba]

Hi Sam, 

 

Well, I think in my previous post I summed up clearly my opinion on what I call star map tsuba and supported it with a picture of (what I consider) a star map tsuba, a reference, and several pictures of a constellation.

 

Now, you stated your opinion in your very well-written post.  But I don’t see that you placed any references or pictures to support what you stated. 

 

As far as you continuing your subject in your post, I would suggest a part of a quote from Colin from a previous post of his on this thread- 

 

“Warning……rabbit hole approaching!….or maybe a black hole? 

Engage maximum reverse warp.”

 

Hey, just my opinion.

 

 

[Scogg]

Showing a picture of something that you interpret as a star map isn't evidence that it is one. It's simply another example of your personal interpretation, whether correct or incorrect.

 

I've already presented my own interpretation in the images above, where I compared two tsuba that, to me, clearly represent two different motifs. One Shippo and the other a constellation. That distinction is also supported by the NBTHK attribution accompanying those examples.

 

The burden of proof isn't on me to provide photographs demonstrating that stars appear irregularly. That's simply the ordinary appearance of the night sky. If you want examples, google image search for artistic depiction of stars, or look up at the sky itself.

 

Your claim is the unusual one: that this incomplete yet precise geometric grid was intentionally meant to represent stars. The burden therefore rests on explaining why an artist would abandon the naturally irregular appearance of a star field in favor of one of the most artificial geometric arrangements possible.

 

Placing an image of a tsuba beside an image of stars is not, by itself, evidence of a connection. By that logic, placing the letter "W" next to the constellation Cassiopeia would prove that the letter was inspired by the star pattern. Similarity alone is not evidence of intent.

These are all just our opinions; some shared are supported by NBTHK documentation, while others are supported by your side-by-side image comparisons. 

-Sam

[Dan tsuba]

Hi Sam!

 

I really like your well written posts!  You explain yourself very well, and I get what you are saying.  Thank you!

But in rebuttal, you stated "That distinction is also supported by the NBTHK attribution accompanying those examples."

Well, I don't know.  Is it possible that the NBTHK could be incorrect?

You also stated "or look up at the sky itself."

You probably missed my previous posts where I stated that about 25 years ago astronomy was my main hobby, with my 5 telescopes.

I have included a picture below (shown previously on this thread) of my main 120mm lens refractor telescope (that I haven't used in about 20 years).

So, yes.  I have looked up at the sky itself!

And I may know a little bit about what I am talking about!

 

 

[Scogg]

23 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

Is it possible that the NBTHK could be incorrect?

 

No organization is infallible. But when weighing who's more likely to be correct, I'm inclined to trust the NBTHK over you. And your argument to support your claim just isn't convincing to me. No offense intended. 

 

If you're asserting that the NBTHK is wrong, are you saying that you have information or expertise that they do not? If so, then that's the evidence I'd be interested in seeing. Until then, I think it's more likely that the NBTHK's interpretation is the correct one. The similarity between shapes just isn't enough to erase their observations and experience, in my opinion.

 

Regarding my comment about looking at the stars, it wasn't meant to be patronizing or insulting. My point was simply that I shouldn't have to provide photographs to demonstrate something anyone can readily observe; that stars are distributed irregularly across the night sky, and not in a uniform grid.

Sorry if it sounded rude, but that was not the intention. I like stars too!

-Sam

Edited Monday at 07:26 PM by Scogg

[Dan tsuba]

Hi Sam, 

 

Like I stated before in part of a quote from Colin “Warning……rabbit hole approaching!….or maybe a black hole? 

Engage maximum reverse warp.” 

 

You stated in your post “No organization is infallible. But when weighing who's more likely to be correct, I'm inclined to trust the NBTHK over you. And your argument to support your claim just isn't convincing to me. No offense intended.  

If you're asserting that the NBTHK is wrong, are you saying that you have information or expertise that they do not? If so, then that's the evidence I'd be interested in seeing. Until then, I think it's more likely that the NBTHK's interpretation is the correct one. The similarity between shapes just isn't enough to erase their observations and experience, in my opinion.” 

 

First off, as far as my argument to support my claim.  Evidently, some people on this thread are convinced.  Evidently, you are not one of them. 

 

As far as “evidence I’d be interested in seeing” again, that has been presented in this thread. 

 

Then you stated, “The similarity between shapes just isn’t enough to erase their observations and experience, in my opinion”. 

 

Well, do you know if the NBTHK has a person on it whose hobby is astronomy? 

 

Then in a previous post you stated “that this incomplete yet precise geometric grid was intentionally meant to represent stars.” 

 

Maybe that was a part of the art on the tsuba “that this incomplete, yet precise geometric grid was intentionally meant to represent stars.”  

 

Maybe that was part of the artisan's intention.  I mean how many times have I read various threads on this forum (can’t remember which threads-hey I am old!) that stated something like tsuba artisan’s used various deliberate methods to depict various objects. 

 

Like I stated before, the tsuba I call star maps are not intended to be astronomically correct in showing the distance between the stars.  The artesian only intended to show the pattern (constellations) the stars made when interconnected. 

 

 

 

[MauroP]

On 7/5/2026 at 1:44 AM, MauroP said:

WESTERN ART MESSAGE BOARD
An unusual depiction of Voodoo practice in Reinassance Italy

I wish to share my finding of a painting portraing a puppet stinged with pins in a well known black magic ritual:

....
- ...

The WAMB member has committed seppuku...

[Dan tsuba]

Mauro,

You are a funny guy.

But I would appreciate it if you would state your opinons regarding what has been stated on this thread instead of throwing vague statements out there.

Communication is key.  You seem to have thrown away the key!