Sa Yoshisada versus Den Iwato Ichimonji

[Brano]

7 hours ago, Rivkin said:

 

So, why DTI?

Its like I constantly hear "Ultricht, Ultricht", but why? Ten TJ on a table? Twenty?

Without good relationships, you won't see 10 TJs on the table even at the best dealer in Tokyo
Probably not one

Utrecht is honestly mostly about average quality blades
But it's an opportunity to see dozens of blades in one place and start training his collector's eye.

Elias is in a euphoric state where he is willing to spend a significant amount for average Juyo level blades

I also think he would do best not to rush and if he has the opportunity to travel to Utrecht, let him do it - not to buy anything.
It's only a few hundred kilometers from Germany and the atmosphere is much more homely compared to DTI

[Lewis B]

As others have said, JAS is not about the level of the blades on offer but having an immersive experience in a very well appointed venue. As a noob to the field its a unique opportunity in Europe to handle many swords up to Juyo level. Yes, the quality as a whole is average but several dealers including Touken Takarado, Ginza Seiyudo and Daisuke Hataya will have upper tier TH (with Juyo potential) and Juyo papered Koto swords. And if Katchu is something that interests you, there are specialist European dealers in attendance too. It really is a one stop shop to ignite a passion and make connections. The potential networking benefits should not be overlooked, especially if you are fishing in the Juyo and Juyo+ pool. 

 

Where else in Europe are you going to have such an opportunity? In the US, with the annual Chicago, SF and Orlando Shows you are spoilt for choice. We Europeans are not so lucky. 

Edited 23 hours ago by Lewis B

[lonely panet]

Touken Takarado, Ginza Seiyudo and Daisuke Hataya  i have been to all 3 dealers,  and they all have stunning items. BUT it has been over 15 years but i remember daisuke having some grand stuff to look at, the nice lounge helps you sit back and spend hours dreaming.  i snatch a huge shoami tsuba for under 700AUD from them.  also being the only thing i could afford too ahhaha.  3 top dealers,  but touken matsumoto needs a mention too

[Gakusee]

Utrecht is a no brainer for people in the DACH and BeNeLux regions. Even if you don’t buy, the social element and window shopping justify the expense. 
And it is also a great experience for the beginning collector in terms of viewing, handling and establishing useful contacts in the community. 
One does not need to stay at the expensive Karl hotel arranged by the organisers as there are a few budget-friendly and sensible hotels within 10-15 min walk. 

 

For a true top-level experience, the DTI is unparallelled worldwide. And given the FX, I think it is a very sensible buying proposition if one is brave enough to carry their blades across borders and sort out taxes and tariffs. It is all about having the appropriate documentation and being eloquent, clear and detailed in one’s written and verbal explanations to officials. It is surmountable, at least for Europe, while the US recent executive orders and legislation have made it trickier. 
 

Brano is right: without the correct introductions and relationship building, one might see some great blades at a dealer, among the ordinary, but not a full line-up. That takes years of relationship investment.  
Furthermore, dealers like “testing” you and ascertaining where a visitor is in terms of knowledge, experience and collecting interests.
And in any case, people who go to the DTI, go to Japan for at least a week and combine that with visits to dealers, museums and of course the expo itself. So, abundant learning experiences apart from the DTI itself. 
 

Here the OP is not just any beginner but someone who feels ready to deploy substantial capital to start up. Therefore a person like that will benefit immediately from exposure to top blades in order to differentiate average from top from substandard. That is not to say that one should buy [only] at the top, but at least be able to appreciate and discern among the diversity of offers. 
 

Going back to the blades, I don’t think the OP will find a suitable quality blade in Europe to the Iwato (which it think is the superior of the two due to health, hamon, relative prestige of the school etc etc) at a similar price. I think the European dealers will price a blade like that at least at a 20% premium. My first Ichimonji experience was with Yoshioka and I ended up with two such blades with excellent hamon, Utsuri and jigane. Then I had the pleasure of owning a zaimei Norifusa, which I warmly recommend as an underpriced /undervalued alternative to top Fukuoka. In fact, Norifusa is a Fukuoka Ichimonji smith who migrated to Katayama and set up a new branch of the Ichimonji but he still is a Fukuoka smith, who combines the finest jigane of all Ichimonji (in my view) with flamboyant Fukuoka hamon. 
If, however, the OP likes Nambokucho grandeur, then I would recommend he consider the more mature Katayama Ichimonji (large Naginata style, boisterous saka choji hamon) within the Ichimonji school. Of course, Sa remains an alternative but there are better alternatives (sorry Mushin) in Katayama Ichi, Chogi, Kanemitsu etc. 
 

 

[Lewis B]

1 hour ago, lonely panet said:

Touken Takarado, Ginza Seiyudo and Daisuke Hataya  i have been to all 3 dealers,  and they all have stunning items. BUT it has been over 15 years but i remember daisuke having some grand stuff to look at, the nice lounge helps you sit back and spend hours dreaming.  i snatch a huge shoami tsuba for under 700AUD from them.  also being the only thing i could afford too ahhaha.  3 top dealers,  but touken matsumoto needs a mention too

I was specifically mentioning dealers who will be in attendance at the Show in Utrecht. I don't think Touken Matsumoto has attended. If I were travelling to Japan there are many dealers who are worthy of a visit and I'm sure most would be memorable.

[Lewis B]

30 minutes ago, Gakusee said:

Norifusa is a Fukuoka Ichimonji smith who migrated to Kamakura and set up a new branch of the Ichimonji 
 

 

Are you sure? I know there were several Norifusa working in the 13th century but none are mentioned in eSwordsmiths as having migrated to Sagami. A generation moved to Bitchu and established the Katayama Ichimonji school in Bitchu province but the attribution is further complicated by a different Katayama village near Fukuoka in Bizen with the 2 centres of production generating slightly different styles of Fukuoka Ichimonji.  Kunzan suggesting the Katayama differentiation should be dropped altogether as being unhelpfully confusing. 

[Gakusee]

40 minutes ago, Lewis B said:

Are you sure? I know there were several Norifusa working in the 13th century but none are mentioned in eSwordsmiths as having migrated to Sagami. A generation moved to Bitchu and established the Katayama Ichimonji school in Bitchu province but the attribution is further complicated by a different Katayama village near Fukuoka in Bizen with the 2 centres of production generating slightly different styles of Fukuoka Ichimonji.  Kunzan suggesting the Katayama differentiation should be dropped altogether as being unhelpfully confusing. 

 

I mistyped - you are absolutely right. I was thinking Katayama. Norifusa is the founder of Katayama

Thanks for pointing the silly mistake out! 

[Rawa]

3 hours ago, Gakusee said:

Utrecht is a no brainer for people in the DACH and BeNeLux regions. Even if you don’t buy, the social element and window shopping justify the expense. 
And it is also a great experience for the beginning collector in terms of viewing, handling and establishing useful contacts in the community. 
One does not need to stay at the expensive Karl hotel arranged by the organisers as there are a few budget-friendly and sensible hotels within 10-15 min walk. 

 

For a true top-level experience, the DTI is unparallelled worldwide. And given the FX, I think it is a very sensible buying proposition if one is brave enough to carry their blades across borders and sort out taxes and tariffs. It is all about having the appropriate documentation and being eloquent, clear and detailed in one’s written and verbal explanations to officials. It is surmountable, at least for Europe, while the US recent executive orders and legislation have made it trickier. 
 

Brano is right: without the correct introductions and relationship building, one might see some great blades at a dealer, among the ordinary, but not a full line-up. That takes years of relationship investment.  
Furthermore, dealers like “testing” you and ascertaining where a visitor is in terms of knowledge, experience and collecting interests.
And in any case, people who go to the DTI, go to Japan for at least a week and combine that with visits to dealers, museums and of course the expo itself. So, abundant learning experiences apart from the DTI itself. 
 

Here the OP is not just any beginner but someone who feels ready to deploy substantial capital to start up. Therefore a person like that will benefit immediately from exposure to top blades in order to differentiate average from top from substandard. That is not to say that one should buy [only] at the top, but at least be able to appreciate and discern among the diversity of offers. 
 

Going back to the blades, I don’t think the OP will find a suitable quality blade in Europe to the Iwato (which it think is the superior of the two due to health, hamon, relative prestige of the school etc etc) at a similar price. I think the European dealers will price a blade like that at least at a 20% premium. My first Ichimonji experience was with Yoshioka and I ended up with two such blades with excellent hamon, Utsuri and jigane. Then I had the pleasure of owning a zaimei Norifusa, which I warmly recommend as an underpriced /undervalued alternative to top Fukuoka. In fact, Norifusa is a Fukuoka Ichimonji smith who migrated to Katayama and set up a new branch of the Ichimonji but he still is a Fukuoka smith, who combines the finest jigane of all Ichimonji (in my view) with flamboyant Fukuoka hamon. 
If, however, the OP likes Nambokucho grandeur, then I would recommend he consider the more mature Katayama Ichimonji (large Naginata style, boisterous saka choji hamon) within the Ichimonji school. Of course, Sa remains an alternative but there are better alternatives (sorry Mushin) in Katayama Ichi, Chogi, Kanemitsu etc. 
 

 

You are going to scare him if He will have to read wall of letters 🤣

[Elias6677]

1 hour ago, Rawa said:

You are going to scare him if He will have to read wall of letters 🤣

I genuinely appreciate this exchange and all the information shared here. It has helped me a lot in understanding these swords, their history, craftsmanship, and what experienced collectors pay attention to. As a beginner, many of these aspects simply wouldn’t occur to me to research or consider.

 

That’s why I see these discussions, different opinions, and comments very positively — they’ve been genuinely helpful and have already taught me a great deal. I’m very grateful that people take the time to share their knowledge and experience. Thank you.

[Jussi Ekholm]

I do think it can often be confusing when lot of different status levels are thrown in for the swords. I do understand it is the easy way in differentiating perceived quality levels and for seasoned collectors it is fairly easy to grasp. However I do think it can be difficult for new enthusiasts, sometimes I think the appreciation status level can be overriding the actual item.

 

In my personal opinion Iwato Ichimonji is a minor branch of Ichimonji school. I do feel the only smith of true importance is Yoshiie. I do have recorded signed items from 5 other Iwato Ichimonji smiths but it is very minor school. The two items by Yoshiie are quite nice. 83,5 cm tachi that is held by Yoshikawa Local History Museum (tachi is Jūyō Bijutsuhin) and a 61,5 cm naginata that is in the collection of Ōyamazumi jinja (naginata is Jūyō Bunkazai). Both are also dated around 1330 and feature Iwato in their signature. I have seen the naginata several times when visiting the shrine and while as naginata lover I do agree it is amazing item and has huge historical importance, I have to say in just pure quality aspect I am not too sold on the item. I just remember always liking other naginata at the shrine a lot more than this particular one.

 

In the beginning I would just recommend looking into different time periods and seeing various items in general. Like how will Osaka-Shintō blades look like, what would be the Kotō Yamato schools like, how Bizen area was churning out various swords throughout history. How different can tantō be next to one another, how short and long can some katana be, how were Japanese polearms. Looking into smiths and schools that might be interesting, rather than going for status level like Jūyō etc. I do think any event with swords will be great for looking at different things. I attended few of the early Utrecht shows and I liked the athmosphere and met so many friends around Europe in there. I think for me the social aspect might have been more important than the swords.

[Rivkin]

I appreciate directness of the responses.

One of the books on investment I've read suggested setting up a training account with 1,000$ total expenditure cap. Why not just simulate purchases and sales?

The argument is that the sense of ownership is a great motivator to study companies.

More so with swords. 

An expensive motivator, but a substantial one.

The danger of going to a sword show is you have a feeling you must purchase something to justify the time and expenses, as a newbie you show the blades to ten people who reply "where you got it" and then some become very enthusiastic about this prospective purchase... because yes its a social event. With all the consequences.

Sword shows expose you to very many very average blades and if you don't have the resistance build in there is an urge to find some hidden greatness there. And frankly you would be much better off with either of the two blades being shown than 95% of the stuff you see at the show. 

Its a great place to look at blades, and if you are very experienced it can be a great place to buy, but if you new and want to make a purchase....

 

I would suggest looking at these two blades in real life by flying to Japan, visiting couple of other stores, since there are plenty in Tokyo and making a purchase. 6 million yen budget justifies that.

[Hoshi]

Dear Elias, 

 

Welcome. 

 

Many people here have provided excellent answers. 

 

I will just chime in on one point your raised: In terms of prestige, a good estimate is to look at designation (how many elite designations relative to less elite designations) and provenance (who owned it and was proud of it). For example, if the extended Tokugawa family held many swords by a smith compared to other families (high GINI coefficient) - you can infer that prestige during the Edo period was high. Importantly, also look at the classical indicators, Fujishiro (the "Saku" ratings) and Toko Taikan (market price observations during his life). They all more or less depict a similar prestige landscape, with some divergences here and there, and their own types of flaws, which you don't need to delve into too much. 

 

You can learn about the Sa school here: https://nihontowatch.com/artists?school=Sa

 

And the Iwato Ichimonji school here: https://nihontowatch.com/artists?school=Iwato+Ichimonji&q=iwato

 

Of course, first and foremost, the work must stand on its own merits, a point which has been well made. 

 

At the level of investment you're considering, it's important to understand how rare designated works are, if there are any top class works (TJ and above), to understand the long tail of excellence and appreciation, the history of the smith, his archetypical style, and so on. 

 

Finally, before you buy a sword in Japan at this level, I always recommend to get due diligence done in Japan by a third party. I can point you to how you can organize this, PM me. 

 

I hope this helps, 

 

Hoshi