Dealing with seller djcollection

[Matsunoki]

What I find surprising is that a collector/dealer did not notice a chip to the kissaki mune…..the kissaki is one of the first things you look at very closely.

Also the mune ware are clearly visible…ok, not massive but they are there.

That rust looks to have pitting, ok again not a massive area but does not look a few weeks old imo, especially as the sword was shipped oiled.

And afaik an Iai koshirae is not an assembly of Frankenstein adapted parts but one that can be safely used for Iai

As said above….lessons to be learned by both parties.

A dealers reputation is hard won and easily lost.

Buyers have to ignore all the sales BS and focus on asking the questions that are not answered in descriptions.

Bottom line…..if you are going to buy from images you’d better know and be able to trust the seller.

……and the best way to deal with a rightfully aggrieved customer is to apologise and refund his money….as Alex says above.

But then I’m very “old school” with an exaggerated sense of transparency and fair play.

 

[Scogg]

4 hours ago, Hokke said:

Type 95 Guntō, Suya Shōten - Variation #4 (Aluminum hilt, steel tsuba)

I chose to archive that Type95 sale post because it was my listing, and as a moderator I share responsibility for organizing and moving posts when necessary.
 

Please understand that Brian and I handle these things manually and individually. Part of being a moderator is making judgment calls like this as I see fit for the board. Additionally, as a gold member I would have requested my post be archived, even if I were not a mod. 
 

This particular item will also be included in the download section of the next edition of my Type 95 monograph, so I wanted to preserve the thread here for reference purposes.
I understand that what may be significant to me, may not be to you; but I see no harm.

-Sam

See below:

 

[Hokke]

7 hours ago, Alex A said:

There is a simple solution to this.

 

Buyer is not happy, send sword back.

 

Seller refund buyer when sword arrives.

 

If seller wont refund buyer than that wont help with future sales.

Simple.....except who pays for the shipping? Buyer shouldn't be responsible since this isnt a case of  "did not like it" but rather a case of "received in a misrepresented condition", i.e. bait and switch. But my guess is that Adam will have an easier time forging a new sword than getting the seller to pony up for return shipping. Although, the shipping cost is probably an amount close to partial refund for the value of a "lesser blade"....something that should probably be looked into.

But at the end of the day, it really comes down to whether or not the seller wants this whole debacle to be referenced every time he lists an item for sale. Maybe he will care and maybe he won't, I guess we will see. For some, im sure it doesn't matter, as you said, good reputations are hard won and easily lost. 

[2devnul]

Hi everyone,

 

I don't think @djcollection will agree on sword return or any refund, as I already tried that. I guess I'm left with this sword for now and need to decide what's next. Reselling it in condition like that is not an option, as I don't want to be next @djcollection. 

 

15 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

Buyers have to ignore all the sales BS and focus on asking the questions that are not answered in descriptions.

I fully agree. It was my mistake that I trusted him. However, I bought on this forum multiple times (also outside of forum, remotely) and never had such bad experience. I guess I was lucky in past to deal with honest people. I definitely feel scammed/cheated here. 

 

This sword might be a good option for Iaido/Kenjutsu/Tameshigiri practice, after fixing all Koshirae issues (or making a new one). Poor polish, rust, Mune/Kissaki Kizu shouldn't be important with that purpose for the sword. 

 

@Brian one question to you. I honestly never looked in this forum section (online sales or sellers), I wouldn't find about @djcollection reputation if the only comments were there. I want to make sure every potential buyer is aware of my use case. Can I post in his 'for sale' topics link to this one? My goal is to warn everyone before they start doing business with him. 

 

[Brian]

Not going to allow people to start commenting in sale posts and linking elsewhere. It's buyer's responsibility to search the forum and read through posts to find vouches or previous deals. And that would open the forum to a ton of problems. What happens when someone has a bad deal with a popular seller? Allow someone to post on all his sales and link to their bad experience?
Plus..I refuse to be a judge and decide on a matter and who is wrong or right. You had a bad experience. Maybe someone else had a good one. No forum allows comments in sale posts linking to a past experience, hope you understand the complexity of that and why we can't. 

[sabiji]

Well, I would try to keep things in perspective. Statements like “...so far, I've always come across honest people,” or “...I definitely feel cheated” imply that the other person is dishonest and a cheater.

 

A situation like this is always very emotional and, in a way, understandable, but I would still be cautious with such statements.

 

If no consensus can be reached, the only thing left to do is to warn others: “...hey, this and that happened to me recently. Make sure to ask for better photos if necessary, or explicitly inquire about specific details that are important to you!”

 

Because what is of great importance to one person may not be a priority for others.

This is a very simple thing I can do as a buyer, and something I can fully understand as a seller as well.
“Everything has always been fine so far, and I’ve trusted the seller” is therefore rather childish and naive.

 

Anyone who’s been involved in this hobby long enough has surely had to gain enough experience of their own and could tell similarly unpleasant stories involving much larger sums.

 

 

I found my visit to the last DTI—and, in that context, to several dealers—particularly noteworthy, as it was a mix of highs and lows. Some pieces turned out to be better than expected, while others I would describe as “skillfully photographed.” The blades’ weaknesses were also definitely not described on the dealers’ websites. And this was true even for dealers who are highly regarded here. That was quite sobering, but also a wake-up call, because by then I had come to believe I was quite good at interpreting photos.

 

 

 

 

 

[Alex A]

I think its a good idea for every seller to accept payment and leave the money to one side and stand by the rule that's its not your money until the buyer confirms the purchase is good, anyways, that's what i believe to be fair.

[Toki]

I once remember buying something on a forum (Non Nihonto related) which had a reputation system in both ways. The buyer obviously could rate the seller, but in return the seller could also rate the buyer. In all fairness, it was a forum more focused on the Marketplalce aspect of things.
This is probably not practical here,when comparing the benefits to the work required to make such a system and would lead to more complications, but it was interesting nonetheless.

I hope the seller and buyer can somehow resolve this issue!

[Hokke]

1 hour ago, Alex A said:

I think its a good idea for every seller to accept payment and leave the money to one side and stand by the rule that's its not your money until the buyer confirms the purchase is good, anyways, that's what i believe to be fair.

I would agree with this, if you agree its far more important for a seller to ACCURATELY describe their item for sale in the first place instead of trying to deceive a buyer with poor pictures and false descriptions.

[Alex A]

Well yes. Any honest and decent seller will have sword in hand and will see obvious marks or flaws and should point them out to the buyer. Though we know that's not always the case and also as mentioned, folks can genuinely miss stuff. 

 

Whatever the case, there should be a refund if the buyers is not happy, no doubt this thread will make some sellers and buyers more cautious.

 

No one wants a sword in the post for two journeys so better doing it right the first time.

 

Glad Brian as added the "Return Policy" to the template. Personally, wouldn't buy a sword from anyone that does not have one.

 

 

[2devnul]

1 hour ago, Toki said:

I hope the seller and buyer can somehow resolve this issue!

 

I proposed a solution to @djcollection one more time. We will see if he agrees. 

 

What I'm asking for is 300$ refund. Sword costs were 1903USD  + 146.54 USD shipping + bank2bank transfer fees and customs/tax = 2350$ total what I paid. 

 

2050$ (total cost after refund) for this sword in its current condition is still to much in my opinion. But ...

Refund will allow me to either resell the sword cheaper (with all visible flaws) = get back my money, or at least part of it. 

OR

Invest in Koshirae/polish and make this sword worthy = I will keep it to myself as I doubt I can get back money after full invest. 

 

[Hokke]

17 hours ago, Brian said:

..I refuse to be a judge and decide on a matter and who is wrong or right. 

I understand your position on comments and links in sale posts, it's perfectly reasonable. The NMB is just the platform and buyers are responsible for doing their own research before making a purchase. But, please dont be coy regarding this sale as if there is any question what happened here. It isnt about WHO is right or wrong, it's about someone using words to describe something, it is not. No forging flaws....No kite-ware and No kizu are absolute statements, PERIOD. The structure of that statement says very clearly that the blade has been inspected and those attributes are absent. The damage to the kissaki and the rust can both be explained beyond a reasonable doubt, which is why I can ignore them. However, 10cm and 25cm obvious flaws in the mune are impossible to miss and everyone who has ever oiled or maintained a blade knows it. NMB may not be able to sanction or step in on private sales, nor should it, but it CAN decide not turn a blind eye to obvious misrepresentation and dismiss it as something lesser. That is precisely the type of oxygen shady sellers rely on to continue selling irresponsibly unencumbered. 

Remember, all this seller had to do was NOT make an absolute statement. All he had to say was, "minor forging flaws" or "no flaws visible, but IM BLIND and cant see anything under 2.5cm in length". He chose NOT to do this which clearly shows either extreme carelessness or an intent to deceive. Either one, IMO, is contemptible.