Type 98 Shin Gunto and Kai Gunto - Ancestral blades?

[xreflections]

I've always loved swords and weaponry, and over the last several years, have had the fortune to find two WWII-era (I believe) swords. 

 

The Type 98 Shin Gunto was my first real sword I bought, for $500 from a local consignment store a few years ago. Wasn't described as anything. It has a small silver plaque affixed on the pommel (kabutogane?) with the family name of "Terasawa" in Kanji, or so I've been told by users in this forum, when I made the initial post about it. I haven't been able to remove the tang; I was able to successfully remove two bamboo pegs, but after gently tapping with a rubber mallet on the bottom of the guard, the metal and hilt still wouldn't budge, so I gave up. I didn't want to risk tearing the skinray skin, which seems rather dry and frail, or denting the guard. I'm going to try to reach out to a dojo that specializes in traditional Japanese swordfighting, but I'm again very hesitant to attempt trying to free the tang, if it might damage the separate components. I reached out to one a few years ago, after getting the advice of people here on this forum, but never heard back. And just decided it would be best, if I don't attempt to remove the hilt. 

 

My second sword is, what I believe to be a Kai Gunto. I've attached photos with the writing on the tang. The first thing I noticed is that the fittings seem like high-quality shakudo, and the blade itself appears to be similar to damascus steel (doing more research, I believe the correct name for the graining in the metal is jihada--it seems like it might be Mokume Hada or Itame Hada, and there's probbaly a different manufacturing technique than traditional damascus steel.). But when I saw that patterning, I was like, yeah, this is a special piece.

 

I don't have experience collecting Japanese blades; I am very much a newcomer, and very much buy on instinct and whim (having handled antiques for years, and being able to estimate accurate signs of ageing in different materials, but having zero knowledge of katanas or traditional sword-making techniques). I paid about $350 for it, so I figure, even if it's not an older blade, it appears to be quite a high quality sword based upon the graining. But the patina looks consistent with antique metal.

 

Thoughts or advice? How do you recommend preserving the lacquer and metal? I've used Renaissance Wax on other antiques, but obviously, don't want to do anything that would risk altering the integrity, historical value, or monetary value of the piece (like, if the Renaissance wax permanently darkened or fused the exposed underlayer of the lacquered sheath. I began removing some of the dark oily staining on the Type 98's blade using alcohol swabs a few years ago, which worked without seeming to affect the surface or shine of the underlying metal, but I didn't finish the job, so most of the residue is still there. Obviously, I don't want to use anything that might scratch the metal, erode any visible graining (this one does not have the same whorled effect as my Kai Gunto), or damage any patina. 

 

If these swords contain ancestral blades, is there a Japanese historical organization or group that might be interested in them? Even just getting detailed photos and documentation? I feel like, if these are 200+ year-old blades, their historical importance and symbolic clan importance kind of predates the WWII-era strife. I know these were probably brought to the US as trophies, but it kind of feels like I'm holding onto someone's family legacy. 

 

I would like to continue collecting Japanese swords and weapons, but being a total newcomer, I can't really tell if I'm getting good deals or not. Can anyone recommend tips, books, or resources for someone just starting out? 

 

 

Edited May 17 by xreflections

[xreflections]

Here are more photos of the Kai Gunto. I'll be adding one more post below with more photos of the Type 98.

 

[xreflections]

Photos of the Type 98

 

 

[Lexvdjagt]

Hello Aiden,

 

Welcome to the forum!

 

I have some unfortunate news. The Kai Gunto is a Chinese replica made in the last 30 years. I say this based on the signature and tang(nakago) of the sword. This sword is not a Japanese sword unfortunately.

 

The Type 98 is a little harder to judge because you weren’t able to remove the tsuka to photograph the nakago. But the sword has a few red flags. It seems like the sword has a second shinogi-ji (ridge line). Which is not really done on Japanese swords in this fashion. This sword could also very well be a replica. 
 

 

Don’t let this discourage you, there are many good swords out there to enjoy. 
 

If you have any questions then please let me know.

 

Greetings,

Lex

[Brian]

The Type 98 is likely genuine. Wipe it over with pure isopropyl alcohol and then oil lightly. The second shinogi line is likely a stripe in the gunk from the sheath. But it looks ok so far.
The Kai Gunto is definitely a complete and poor fake. Even in polish, real Japanese swords don't look Damascus, and the hada is subtle. A vivid pattern like this is a sure sign of a fake. Focus on the other one.
If both mekugi are out, you should be able to tap off the tsuka. Make sure you are using something like wood or plastic and you should have minimal chance of damaging anything. Seeing that tang is vital.

[xreflections]

59 minutes ago, Lexvdjagt said:

Hello Aiden,

 

Welcome to the forum!

 

I have some unfortunate news. The Kai Gunto is a Chinese replica made in the last 30 years. I say this based on the signature and tang(nakago) of the sword. This sword is not a Japanese sword unfortunately.

 

The Type 98 is a little harder to judge because you weren’t able to remove the tsuka to photograph the nakago. But the sword has a few red flags. It seems like the sword has a second shinogi-ji (ridge line). Which is not really done on Japanese swords in this fashion. This sword could also very well be a replica. 
 

 

Don’t let this discourage you, there are many good swords out there to enjoy. 
 

If you have any questions then please let me know.

 

Greetings,

Lex

Darn, I really thought the Kai Gunto might be original I looked at the wear on the scabbard and blade, and the seemingly good quality of the shakudo, and thought it looked real. 

[xreflections]

44 minutes ago, Brian said:

The Type 98 is likely genuine. Wipe it over with pure isopropyl alcohol and then oil lightly. The second shinogi line is likely a stripe in the gunk from the sheath. But it looks ok so far.
The Kai Gunto is definitely a complete and poor fake. Even in polish, real Japanese swords don't look Damascus, and the hada is subtle. A vivid pattern like this is a sure sign of a fake. Focus on the other one.
If both mekugi are out, you should be able to tap off the tsuka. Make sure you are using something like wood or plastic and you should have minimal chance of damaging anything. Seeing that tang is vital.

What do you recommend oiling it with?

 

By damascus I mean the ripply pattern on the metal--I read that it could be seen on some Japanese blades: https://swordis.com/blog/jihada/?srsltid=AfmBOoqQV8Rd1ndSd0Nuh3JnMIQP0-w3LOH6N00WGqUKJgCOAmIf1-lG

 

thanks!

Edited May 17 by xreflections

[Lewis B]

32 minutes ago, xreflections said:

What do you recommend oiling it with?

 

Tsubaki oil specifically for blades is recommended after initial cleanup with isopropyl alcohol. Amazon sells it.

Edited Sunday at 09:59 AM by Lewis B

[Brian]

3 hours ago, xreflections said:

What do you recommend oiling it with?

 

By damascus I mean the ripply pattern on the metal--I read that it could be seen on some Japanese blades: https://swordis.com/blog/jihada/?srsltid=AfmBOoqQV8Rd1ndSd0Nuh3JnMIQP0-w3LOH6N00WGqUKJgCOAmIf1-lG

 

thanks!

That article is misleading. The first pic appears to be a fake too. The hada you'll see on unpolished swords or ones not fully professionally polished looks nothing like that. In fact, it's barely visible in most cases. And looks nothing like layering. 

The closest you'll find is visible hada like on Gassan ayasugi hada etc, but in most cases it will appear more like this...

 

There are high end sword oils recommended, but for the average sword that is found out of polish and has been cleaned with Isopropyl, a few drops of any decent gun oil will work to prevent rust. Don't pour oil on the blade or leave a thick layer. A quicj spray or a few drops onto a clean soft tissue, and then wiped over the blade in one direction will leave enough film. If you can see pooling or droplets, you have used too much.

 

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Aiden , your Naval sword ,as has been pointed out, is junk however your Army sword is definately genuine and could be quite a good one . The presence of the owners name in the silver plaque and the lacquered scabbard are indications of the blade possibly being a good one . You really need to get the handle off in case it is rusting underneath and it is this rust that is preventing you getting the handle off .  I would remove the peg completely ,pad the tsuba with cloth or leather then start tapping the tsuba with a block of wood . If you don't feel comfortable doing this seek out a collector who has done it before and get them to help .

[ROKUJURO]

Aiden,

if ever you get your hands on genuine Japanese military blades, please post images of them in the military section. This NIHONTO section is for traditionally forged authentic blades.

[Bruce Pennington]

I don't know the Chinese sword world, but the Chinese fakers love Damascus pattern steel.  I have seen a few Japanese swords that had vibrant hada which might be what the Chinese are trying to emulate with the Damascus.  Here is one I filed for just such discussions:

[Brian]

Yeah, but it's only really ayasugi hada that comes close to people's expectation of damascus

[eternal_newbie]

1 hour ago, Brian said:

Yeah, but it's only really ayasugi hada that comes close to people's expectation of damascus

 

That, and the extremely loud hada of a handful of Shinshinto smiths who aimed at Norishige's matsukawa (it ends up having an almost acid-etched appearance).