Two kozuka with Joi signatures – seeking opinions

[RATOYO]

Hello everyone,

I have a strong interest in Japanese sword fittings, especially kozuka.
This is my first post here and I would like to share two pieces from my collection.

Both kozuka are signed “Joi”, but they do not have papers, so I am not sure whether the signatures are genuine or gimei.

The seal on the left kozuka (the Kanzan sweeping scene) is inlaid on a raised silver plaque.

I would really appreciate any opinions or comments from more experienced collectors.

Thank you.

Liang
 

[MauroP]

Hi, Liang.
Neither signature looks perfectly coherent with what's reported in Sesko's "Signatures of Japanese Sword Fittings Artists", but the quality of both kozuka seems quite good to me. Since I've no experience about Jōi pieces, I refrain to comment on the genuinity of your kozuka.

 

[Curran]

Joi signatures are usually 11 out of 10 gimei [false signature].

 

You have some very nice Nara works, with what look like fairly false signatures.

I'd be surprised if either passed a shinsa, but I have been surprised by shinsa more than a few times.

[RATOYO]

Thank you all for the helpful comments. I’m very glad to meet and learn from everyone here.

Personally, I am particularly fond of the kozuka on the left, depicting Kanzan sweeping. I find the nikubori-style carving very appealing and it reminds me somewhat of the style associated with Sugiura Joi.

That said, I also have doubts about the signature, which is one of the reasons I decided to post these pieces here and ask for opinions.

Since joining this forum and reading many discussions, I have also realized how common gimei can be in tosogu. As a relatively new student of this field, it has been quite eye-opening to see the different perspectives people have regarding signatures and even papers.

I really appreciate everyone taking the time to share their knowledge and experience.

[Curran]

Gimei happen.

They happen a lot.

 

Sometimes the false signatures are on otherwise beautiful works.

I've love two or three for the workmanship, knowing the signature wasn't authentic.

 

[Matsunoki]

20 minutes ago, Curran said:

Gimei happen.

They happen a lot.

21 minutes ago, Curran said:

Sometimes the false signatures are on otherwise beautiful works.

 

I agree totally with Curran…..some superb works have “questionable mei” but I often wonder…..are they really gimei? How can we be certain? Which ones are genuine and which not? Mei would doubtless vary as artists grew older, maybe even they even changed them deliberately …..we don’t really know. Records are a bit sparse.

We do know many of these artists had teachers and pupils, perhaps even akin to many swordsmiths workshops. 
Iwamoto Konkan is a prime example where many wonderful works are catalogued as “after Konkan” or “school of Konkan” yet someone with immense talent made them. Who?….and why gimei something superb in its own right. Was it done with the blessing of the “master”, was it made by the master and signed by the student (as per some swords).

We jump to the conclusion that it was done to deceive ie for £ but I remain hesitant to judge.

 

Of course many pieces fall well short on technical quality or artistry and certainly we can be confident that they are indeed  “wrong uns” but sometimes I wonder……

 

Just some wandering rambling musings🙂

[Curran]

VERY GOOD POST BY COLIN>  

 

This is my favorite _half gimei_

Purchased in 2007.

Now Tokubetsu Hozon NBTHK.

 

Signed on the front by shodai Norisuke.

Signed on the back by nidai Norisuke with his early signature "Norishige".

It bounced around Europe for many years as a gimei.

 

I bought it and studied it. Over time and with Tanobe-san help, I came to feel that the 'gimei' mistakes on the front were consistent with the nidai's handwriting.

This design was known to be one of the last ones done by the shodai. There is a dated one on record.

As the shodai lay ill and dying one winter, it seems the nidai finished the work and partially forged his adoptive dad's signature.

Thus, it passed shinsa as a daisaku finished by the nidai.

 

If we didn't have extensive records of the shodai and nidai, this one would have been declared "GIMEI' by the public at large.

 

Judges things by the workmanship. Some people collect signatures, but sometimes you just have to appreciate a finely made piece and ignore the signature.

I too like the kozuka of Kansan sweeping. Some of the gold inlay, [on his leggings] is the work of someone very skilled.

Nice kozuka. Workmanship is good.

   --You get sick of it, I will trade you something for it.

 

[RATOYO]

42 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

I agree totally with Curran…..some superb works have “questionable mei” but I often wonder…..are they really gimei? How can we be certain? Which ones are genuine and which not? Mei would doubtless vary as artists grew older, maybe even they even changed them deliberately …..we don’t really know. Records are a bit sparse.

We do know many of these artists had teachers and pupils, perhaps even akin to many swordsmiths workshops. 
Iwamoto Konkan is a prime example where many wonderful works are catalogued as “after Konkan” or “school of Konkan” yet someone with immense talent made them. Who?….and why gimei something superb in its own right. Was it done with the blessing of the “master”, was it made by the master and signed by the student (as per some swords).

We jump to the conclusion that it was done to deceive ie for £ but I remain hesitant to judge.

 

Of course many pieces fall well short on technical quality or artistry and certainly we can be confident that they are indeed  “wrong uns” but sometimes I wonder……

 

Just some wandering rambling musings🙂

Thank you both for these thoughtful perspectives. I couldn’t agree more.

In a way, this is also one of the reasons I am drawn to the Kanzan sweeping scene. Perhaps he is not only sweeping a dusty courtyard, but also suggesting something more symbolic. As collectors, maybe we should not focus only on the signature, but also on the spirit and workmanship of the piece.

I would also be very interested to hear more opinions about the design and workmanship of the piece itself.

[eternal_newbie]

58 minutes ago, Curran said:

This is my favorite _half gimei_

Purchased in 2007.

 

Reading this story reminded me of an anecdote shared by Ted Tenold many years ago on this very board:

 

I remember a story relayed to me about a Japanese swordsmith that was a visiting guest here in the US. He has made a few small tanto while here and was signing them the morning after a long night of libation. As he was inscribing the mei, he made an abrupt stop from his pace. He grunted and shook his head obviously annoyed by his misplaced strike of a single stroke. Looking up at the observers he laughed lightly and said, "In two hundred years, this is gimei!", then went back about his business.

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/4357-signature-comparisons/#findComment-38825

 

Useful reminders that for all their artistry and consistency, the great artisans of old were still human and subject to the same pressures as us; a slip of the hand, a bit too much sake the night before, the infirmity of age and sickness.

[Matsunoki]

1 hour ago, RATOYO said:

I would also be very interested to hear more opinions about the design and workmanship of the piece itself.

Well, I think it is head and shoulders above the other one. The technical quality of the inlay is excellent and the treatment of the laughing face likewise. The composition works well on the narrow kozuka….and the subtle inlay on his lower robe is easily missed. Not sure if it is meant to depict deerskin? High quality well made kozuka. I’d happily own it and personally would not worry about the mei. Quality is quality.

re Shinsa for fittings….I rather lost faith when they papered a Nagoya mono!

[RATOYO]

2 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

Well, I think it is head and shoulders above the other one. The technical quality of the inlay is excellent and the treatment of the laughing face likewise. The composition works well on the narrow kozuka….and the subtle inlay on his lower robe is easily missed. Not sure if it is meant to depict deerskin? High quality well made kozuka. I’d happily own it and personally would not worry about the mei. Quality is quality.

re Shinsa for fittings….I rather lost faith when they papered a Nagoya mono!

Thank you very much for pointing that out – I had never considered that it might be intended to represent deerskin. Looking at it again after your comment, it really does resemble deerskin quite closely.

My impression is that the spots may have been created with nunome-zōgan and then the hair-like texture was added with fine kebori to suggest the fur. It’s a very subtle effect and easy to overlook at first.

I also really like the treatment of Hanshan’s head. The sculpting of the hair is quite distinctive – not only the topknot, but also the layered, slightly interlocking strands of the fringe, which I don’t often see on kozuka of this type.

[RATOYO]

3 hours ago, eternal_newbie said:

 

Reading this story reminded me of an anecdote shared by Ted Tenold many years ago on this very board:

 

I remember a story relayed to me about a Japanese swordsmith that was a visiting guest here in the US. He has made a few small tanto while here and was signing them the morning after a long night of libation. As he was inscribing the mei, he made an abrupt stop from his pace. He grunted and shook his head obviously annoyed by his misplaced strike of a single stroke. Looking up at the observers he laughed lightly and said, "In two hundred years, this is gimei!", then went back about his business.

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/4357-signature-comparisons/#findComment-38825

 

Useful reminders that for all their artistry and consistency, the great artisans of old were still human and subject to the same pressures as us; a slip of the hand, a bit too much sake the night before, the infirmity of age and sickness.

I love this story. A great reminder – thanks for sharing it.😁

[Jake6500]

Those are some very nice pieces I would love to have in my collection, gimei or not!

 

Everyone wants the authentic signature but as long as the piece is high quality, I don't think it matters too much.

[Matsunoki]

11 hours ago, RATOYO said:

My impression is that the spots may have been created with nunome-zōgan and then the hair-like texture was added with fine kebori to suggest the fur.

Liang, no I don’t think it is nunome zogan.

Nunome zogan is not usually used on a copper base because the adhesion would be poor and also the subsequent carving of the “fur” would tear the delicate foil.

It is almost certainly true Hirazogan done in either silver or more likely pale shibuichi. ……(although you have the piece in your hands and I do not!)

Also had you noticed the teeth appear inlaid, probably in silver and quite possibly the eyes also. Is that the case?

All point to very high quality work.

[RATOYO]

49 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Liang, no I don’t think it is nunome zogan.

Nunome zogan is not usually used on a copper base because the adhesion would be poor and also the subsequent carving of the “fur” would tear the delicate foil.

It is almost certainly true Hirazogan done in either silver or more likely pale shibuichi. ……(although you have the piece in your hands and I do not!)

Also had you noticed the teeth appear inlaid, probably in silver and quite possibly the eyes also. Is that the case?

All point to very high quality work.

 

Thank you, Colin, for pointing that out and correcting my mistake once again.

Due to limited equipment, I can only take simple magnified photos using my phone together with a magnifying glass. From these images it appears that the lower edge of the robe is indeed not nunome inlay. The inlay there does not seem to be gold, but rather brass or a copper alloy. One can clearly see an oxidation layer on the surface, and the color is noticeably different from the gold inlays nearby.

Looking more closely at the magnified images, a number of small details also become visible: the patterns on the robe and the way the garment is modeled, the carved lines of the broom and the way it is bound together, details of the sandals, and the facial features. The eyes appear to be inlaid (likely dark shakudo), with gold inlay used for the teeth. One can also see the wavy hairstyle I mentioned before, as well as the folds of the eyelids. I also noticed for the first time some subtle details of the lips, and even what seem to be small dimples on the face.

I am very happy that through this discussion I can discover more details of the piece — thoughtful discussions like this always lead to new observations.

 

[RATOYO]

A small addition: just after posting my previous reply, I noticed another detail on the robe. Along each main chisel cut forming the texture, there appears to be a row of extremely fine secondary lines, almost like tiny eyelash-like strokes. These details are very difficult to see with the naked eye, and even with a 30× magnifying glass they are barely visible.

It may perhaps be an attempt to imitate the texture of embroidery.

 

Liang

Edited March 14 by RATOYO

[Exclus1ve]

These are indeed good kozuka, however I would like to draw attention to a few points. This is indeed a deer hide on the belt, which is often seen in paintings depicting these characters. The spots do resemble inlay, I agree.

 

However, the quality of the inlay in the hair and the golden bows on the head is not perfect, and the surrounding field is also not ideally finished. This is the first thing I always pay attention to: whether there is a gap between the ground and the inlay itself. After that, it is important to level and polish the ground perfectly using different stones and charcoal so that it becomes flush with the rest of the surface and hides the traces of the inlay. This is quite a labor-intensive process, so truly perfect execution is usually found in high-level works.

The carving, in my opinion, is rather ordinary; there are irregularities both in the work itself and in the signature on the seal.

 

On 3/14/2026 at 12:18 PM, RATOYO said:

Along each main chisel cut forming the texture, there appears to be a row of extremely fine secondary lines, almost like tiny eyelash-like strokes

This is simply the carving technique - almost all Soten signatures are carved in this manner.

 

The Joi signature, in fact, was very frequently copied, and I am inclined to think that this is gimei, although I do like the overall composition and execution!

 

Best regards!

[RATOYO]

41 minutes ago, Exclus1ve said:

This is simply the carving technique - almost all Soten signatures are carved in this manner.

 

Dear Viktor,

Thank you for pointing that out — it actually added something new to my understanding. Looking more closely, I can indeed see how the pattern may have been built up through many tiny push cuts, almost like a sequence of very small strokes. The decorative pattern on the robe seems even finer than the lines I usually see in signatures on many tsuba, which is what caught my attention.

And thank you as well for the note about the deer hide — that was something I had not considered before, but it makes a lot of sense when compared with the paintings.
 

Liang

Edited March 15 by RATOYO

[RATOYO]

1 hour ago, Exclus1ve said:

 

However, the quality of the inlay in the hair and the golden bows on the head is not perfect, and the surrounding field is also not ideally finished. This is the first thing I always pay attention to: whether there is a gap between the ground and the inlay itself. After that, it is important to level and polish the ground perfectly using different stones and charcoal so that it becomes flush with the rest of the surface and hides the traces of the inlay. This is quite a labor-intensive process, so truly perfect execution is usually found in high-level works.

The carving, in my opinion, is rather ordinary; there are irregularities both in the work itself and in the signature on the seal.

 

 

 

 

Regarding the comments about the inlay appearing rough and the ornament not being perfectly symmetrical, I wonder if this might relate to the carving approach used in some works attributed to Sugiura Jōi (Ichisandō Jōi). In the nikuaibori manner the figure is first established through carving and the inlay applied afterwards, so the edges of the inlay do not always completely disappear into the ground.

As for the robe ornament, although the scrolling pattern is not strictly symmetrical, I noticed a very similar treatment in published examples of Jōi’s work. I am attaching a reference image from Fukushi Shigeo’s Machibori Meihin Shūsei (町彫名品聚成), where the illustrated piece is considered a representative work by Jōi and is designated an Important Art Object.

Just to clarify, I’m not trying to defend my own piece — I’m mainly interested in discussing the technique itself.

 

Liang

Edited March 15 by RATOYO

[RATOYO]

While looking through another reference, I came across a kozuka with a very similar Kanzan and Jittoku composition in a Russian publication on Japanese sword fittings. The treatment there appears somewhat simpler, but the overall arrangement of the figures is quite close. I thought it might be interesting to share it here for comparison.

[Exclus1ve]

Everything is possible
However, I still see a relatively simple carving style that is characteristic of many works from the Nara school.
A good example, Liang! I have books by this author; this kozuka is very similar in carving technique and execution - a good school work.

Everything is understood through comparison; when looking at these works, there are fewer questions…

https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O465406/tsuba-sugiura-issando-nagaharu/

[RATOYO]

19 hours ago, Exclus1ve said:

Everything is possible
However, I still see a relatively simple carving style that is characteristic of many works from the Nara school.
A good example, Liang! I have books by this author; this kozuka is very similar in carving technique and execution - a good school work.

Everything is understood through comparison; when looking at these works, there are fewer questions…

https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O465406/tsuba-sugiura-issando-nagaharu/

As someone fairly new to studying tosogu, I sometimes find it a bit hard to understand why certain pieces in museum collections or catalogues are considered masterpieces.

At first glance they don’t always look more elaborate or technically refined than other examples. I guess with more study and comparison the reasons become clearer, but for beginners like me it can still be a little confusing.

So discussions like this are actually very helpful.

[Matsunoki]

1 hour ago, RATOYO said:

I sometimes find it a bit hard to understand why certain pieces in museum collections or catalogues are considered masterpieces.

You are not alone there! I’m sure others will chime in but basically it is wise to pay no serious attention to 90% of museum descriptions. They do not have the expertise and often get it very badly wrong. 
Try this link…..

https://www.bonhams.com/search/?chronology=past&query=Tsuba

Bonhams are far better than museums and you change the search criteria to fuchi or kozuka etc or even specific artists.

Remember to click on the” past lots” filter.

[RATOYO]

1 hour ago, Matsunoki said:

You are not alone there! I’m sure others will chime in but basically it is wise to pay no serious attention to 90% of museum descriptions. They do not have the expertise and often get it very badly wrong. 
Try this link…..

https://www.bonhams.com/search/?chronology=past&query=Tsuba

Bonhams are far better than museums and you change the search criteria to fuchi or kozuka etc or even specific artists.

Remember to click on the” past lots” filter.

Thank you, Colin. I also enjoy looking through auction catalogues and past lots, and I spend quite a bit of time studying both Japanese and English books on tosogu. The more references and comparisons one can see, the better.

That said, I still find some aspects confusing at times. My feeling is that Japanese tosogu craftsmanship, especially the metalwork on sword fittings, may still not be fully appreciated or understood on a broader international level.

[Matsunoki]

39 minutes ago, RATOYO said:

My feeling is that Japanese tosogu craftsmanship, especially the metalwork on sword fittings, may still not be fully appreciated or understood on a broader international level.

I guess it is like any niche subject…..only a comparatively few people will be interested and even fewer will take the time to study the artistry, skill and mythology. Collecting stamps and coins is far easier!
However the financial values of fine Japanese metalwork including sword fittings has increased massively in the last 10 - 15 years so I guess some heavy hitters are taking some notice worldwide. 
I’m not sure if that is a good or a bad thing. 

[RATOYO]

47 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

I guess it is like any niche subject…..only a comparatively few people will be interested and even fewer will take the time to study the artistry, skill and mythology. Collecting stamps and coins is far easier!
However the financial values of fine Japanese metalwork including sword fittings has increased massively in the last 10 - 15 years so I guess some heavy hitters are taking some notice worldwide. 
I’m not sure if that is a good or a bad thing. 

You are absolutely right, and that is exactly why I find this field so fascinating. The more you look, the more subtle details in the craftsmanship reveal themselves.

 

 

I also hope we will see more great publications in the future… and maybe one day they will include some of our own little treasures as well.

[Exclus1ve]

18 hours ago, RATOYO said:

As someone fairly new to studying tosogu, I sometimes find it a bit hard to understand why certain pieces in museum collections or catalogues are considered masterpieces.

I think it doesn’t really matter where an item is located. Museums often contain works of very different levels anyway, since many of them were assembled from donations from all over the world. Over the past couple of years I’ve become something of a Tosogu maniac - having read through half of the Tosogu forum and studied thousands of different works wherever possible) I find it almost like an addiction or an illness. For me it has become not just a hobby but a form of stress relief in any free moment. And the most pleasant thing is that there is still so much more ahead.

As Colin already told you, only visual familiarity will eventually give you understanding - you will start to see the differences yourself. I also insist on studying and understanding the technical processes involved - many thanks to Ford Hallam.

As for this particular piece, it is a really good Nara work, and compositionally I find it very appealing. However, when we talk about a master of the level of Sigiura Joi, the standards for the work are somewhat higher. Please understand me correctly - I simply do see differences in the carving, the inlay, and the signature, and in my opinion they are significant. To be honest, I’m a bit surprised by the reaction of many people, so let’s examine it in a bit more detail. As I like to say, everything is understood through comparison, so let’s take two works as a basis - pieces whose authenticity, I hope, does not raise any questions.

 

First of all, all the elements are perfectly inlaid, the boundaries are crisp and carefully finished. Next, look at the treatment and polishing of all the fine elements - Joi truly managed to give them life. Just consider the frozen expression of Benten: the eyelids are perfectly polished and emphasize the smooth contours of the eyes with their inlaid pupils. As for the katakiribori carving - it is almost perfect. All the lines are straight, of ideal thickness, the edges are not collapsed, they have the same depth and are cut at the correct angle, which allows us to see the play of light so clearly - for example, in the hair of Benten’s hairstyle.

Pay attention to the elegantly raised shoulder guards of Bishamonten - they truly have volume and a cloud-like feeling. Look at his helmet: all the details are carefully inlaid, and the surrounding surface is perfectly even. Consider the face for at least a minute—through different strokes and careful polishing the author managed to convey such a realistic appearance. The play of light from such polishing is visible even in these photos.

 

And here is our recent mysterious friend In my opinion, one of the best portraits in Tosogu. Look at the palm and the fingers. The reed is inlaid so delicately that it seems to float in the air, this effect is achieved through additional cuts underneath that create a shadow effect - it's fantastic. (It’s a pity the reed is broken at the end, but we can clearly see the taper toward the tip) The forehead deserves special attention. The depth of the hair has been worked out, the hair of different lengths is directed at its own specific angle.

Look at the ears of these characters - they are also carefully worked and polished. Also pay attention to all the small katakiribori elements: they are confidently carved, even with the same carving rhythm (those very eyelashes), again to properly convey the play of light.

The signatures on those works are also carved with a confident hand, whereas in this example that feeling is absent - especially in the seal.

I once held an authentic Joi kozuka with papers in hand, it was a work of similar quality to the examples above. I hope this helps a little with understanding. However, the most amusing thing is that in the end we may never know the truth - we are left only to guess and discuss

 

Best regards!

Viktor

Edited March 17 by Exclus1ve

[RATOYO]

Hi, Viktor,

I see your point, and I understand the importance of technical precision.

I think we may simply be looking at these pieces from different perspectives. For me, beyond technique, I tend to focus more on expression and the overall presence of the figures.

This is also why, in painting and sculpture, human figures are often considered more challenging than animals or landscapes — fine details alone are not enough.

In any case, I appreciate the discussion.

[ROKUJURO]

I was told that JOI was/is very famous for fine work on faces. 

I bought this KASHIRA as "JOI school/workshop" piece. It is not signed, but good work in my eyes. Although rather flat in design (not at all MARU BORI), placing the face on the edge of the KASHIRA gives it more 3D dimension.

34,4 mm long

[Exclus1ve]

1 hour ago, ROKUJURO said:

I was told that JOI was/is very famous for fine work on faces. 

I bought this KASHIRA as "JOI school/workshop" piece. It is not signed, but good work in my eyes. Although rather flat in design (not at all MARU BORI), placing the face on the edge of the KASHIRA gives it more 3D dimension.

Something beautiful. Is there a way to take a better quality photo?