Could anyone tell me if this is real based on the tsuka and arsenal stamp?

[NotANinja]

Hi all,

 

A blade in a local auction has me confused. It looks legitimate from a glance but looking closer I'm wondering if it is or not. There is no samegawa under the tsuka-ito, it just looks like canvas, but everything else I've seen looks good. Fully aware this may just be a type imbot familiar with. The nakago also has a naval stamp on it that looks a little different from the ones I can find in Fuller/Gregory. 

 

Many thanks!

 

Rob.

[Bruno]

legit.

[Kiipu]

Could be a postwar PX sword and I will kindly ask @Bruce Pennington to take a look at it.

[Tensho]

Yes, its a PX sword. The fused seppa on the fuchi, Army(not navy) kabutogane and menuki are the main giveaway. 

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/51891-kai-gunto/

Edited December 16, 2025 by Tensho

[Bruce Pennington]

Rob,

Can you post photos of the full nakago, both sides, and one or two of the rest of the fittings?

 

We have on file a Toyosuke, anchor stamped stainless blade in a T98 with leather cover Army gunto, so it is possible this is a late-war rig.

 

The one-piece seppa/fuchi, as well as black fabric ito, has been seen on late-war gunto, so that by itself is not a clear indicator of a souvenir.

 

The non-gold-gilded metal fittings lean toward a late-war gunto ..... HOWEVER, we have a couple of worn, ungilded souvenirs on file.  The wear and tear would also lean toward late-war gunto, but we have one or two souvenirs with clear wear and tear as well.

 

The large, think tsuba has the look of the souvenir tsuba.  I tried searching for actual late-war gunto to see if any had this thin, round tsuba but couldn't locate any (I'm not good at searching, though)

 

More photos would help, especially if there is a 2 digit black number painted on the nakago.  

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Here is a photo provided by @Jcstroud that is quite similar to Rob's photos, and this one is from a souvenir

 

Waiting for more photos from Rob, but I'm leaning toward his being a souvenir, too.

[Tensho]

51 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

The one-piece seppa/fuchi, as well as black fabric ito, has been seen on late-war gunto, so that by itself is not a clear indicator of a souvenir.

 

The non-gold-gilded metal fittings lean toward a late-war gunto ..... HOWEVER, we have a couple of worn, ungilded souvenirs on file.  The wear and tear would also lean toward late-war gunto, but we have one or two souvenirs with clear wear and tear as well.

Do you have any reference to "Genuine" captured late war gunto with the one piece fuchi/seppa? Hard to tell in the photos, but these parts may have been gilded at one time and/or are just heavly tarnished. 

 

I so far have only seen this combo on the PX swords along with them having mixed parts i.e solid iron tsuba, navy menuki with army parts, navy kabutogane with army menuki etc.. 

 

I would be curious to learn that legit war time swords like this have actually been taken from combat. I have only seen documented PX receipts. 

Edited December 17, 2025 by Tensho

[John C]

There is one more indicator, however I don't think we have been tracking it per se. The tsuba on the souvenir is a different size than the army plain black tsuba. And I also wonder for which branch would this have been made if it were a late war issue? Just a universal sword for all branches? It just seems to me these are all souvenir - some with left over blades and one piece fuchi.

 

John C.

[NotANinja]

5 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Here is a photo provided by @Jcstroud that is quite similar to Rob's photos, and this one is from a souvenir

 

Waiting for more photos from Rob, but I'm leaning toward his being a souvenir, too.

Hi Bruce,

 

Thank you for all your detailed replies. I don't own the sword(s) yet, they're in a shop a bit too far away for me to travel too but I like them and wanted to see if I could authenticate them before getting them. These are all the photos they've sent me of them, aside from the photos you've already seen. Annoyingly they didn't say which nakago belongs to which sword. They also think they're reproductions but I somewhat doubt it, because theyre also selling 2 other blades one they've labelled as nihonto when it quite obviously isn't and one they're not sure about when it quite clearly is, so I don't trust their judgement.

[NotANinja]

5 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Rob,

Can you post photos of the full nakago, both sides, and one or two of the rest of the fittings?

 

We have on file a Toyosuke, anchor stamped stainless blade in a T98 with leather cover Army gunto, so it is possible this is a late-war rig.

 

The one-piece seppa/fuchi, as well as black fabric ito, has been seen on late-war gunto, so that by itself is not a clear indicator of a souvenir.

 

The non-gold-gilded metal fittings lean toward a late-war gunto ..... HOWEVER, we have a couple of worn, ungilded souvenirs on file.  The wear and tear would also lean toward late-war gunto, but we have one or two souvenirs with clear wear and tear as well.

 

The large, think tsuba has the look of the souvenir tsuba.  I tried searching for actual late-war gunto to see if any had this thin, round tsuba but couldn't locate any (I'm not good at searching, though)

 

More photos would help, especially if there is a 2 digit black number painted on the nakago.  

 

 

And sorry, still new to this stuff, by souvenir do you mean chinese/indian/wherever non-genuine replica?

[NotANinja]

5 hours ago, Tensho said:

Do you have any reference to "Genuine" captured late war gunto with the one piece fuchi/seppa? Hard to tell in the photos, but these parts may have been gilded at one time and/or are just heavly tarnished. 

 

I so far have only seen this combo on the PX swords along with them having mixed parts i.e solid iron tsuba, navy menuki with army parts, navy kabutogane with army menuki etc.. 

 

I would be curious to learn that legit war time swords like this have actually been taken from combat. I have only seen documented PX receipts. 

PX? Excuse my ignorance, is that 'part exchange' swords made from genuine parts from different places/other swords? Like a mix of shin and kai gunto mounts?

[mecox]

@NotANinja  Rob, PX is a store/retail outlet/supplier for US troops near their bases.  They had them for occupation troops in Japan.  Immediate post war, 1946, the PX stores were seliing "souvenir" swords that were made of arsenal parts left over.  The blades were mostly naval arsenal with anchor stamps or anchor/circle, the tsuba mosly black plain iron ovals shape, and the tsuka  bound but often with canvas underlay.  The Fuchi/kashira were often mixed army/navy.  Bruce has been compiling info on this....its confusing.

[John C]

7 hours ago, NotANinja said:

PX? Excuse my ignorance, is that 'part exchange'

Rob:

The term stands for Post Exchange. Army posts all have a store, which varies in size depending on the size of the post (or fort if it's larger; depot if it's smaller), that sells everything from basic necessitites in smaller posts up to full-on big box stores in some of the larger forts. 

 

John C.

[NotANinja]

4 minutes ago, John C said:

Rob:

The term stands for Post Exchange. Army posts all have a store, which varies in size depending on the size of the post (or fort if it's larger; depot if it's smaller), that sells everything from basic necessitites in smaller posts up to full-on big box stores in some of the larger forts. 

 

John C.

Ah I see, you can tell I'm not American haha! Interesting to know though. Do you know if these px swords are worth much? Want to know how much to pay or if I'm about to be ripped off!

[Bruce Pennington]

Rob,

Still hard to say, but I'd lean toward both of these being post-war souvenirs.  You can read about them in this article:

 

They used to sell for $450 USD, but prices have been going up lately, say around $800.  Most of the time, sellers do not know what they really are and are selling them as Navy swords, which garners quite a higher price.

 

13 hours ago, Tensho said:

Do you have any reference to "Genuine" captured late war gunto with the one piece fuchi/seppa? Hard to tell in the photos, but these parts may have been gilded at one time and/or are just heavly tarnished. 

Matt,

I'm short on time, right now, but will find them later today and post, unless someone with good searching skills (don't want to name names - @Kiipu) beats me to it.

[Bruce Pennington]

Matt,

Still searching, but I have these 3 already:

Posted by @Tonyatm HERE.  He doesn't show it seperately, but you can see it's one piece:

When he shows the tsuba/seppa set, there is only 1 small seppa:

 

This one is on an Army Type 98, found at an auction site, with a zohieto blade:

 

 

This one is on an upgraded kaigunto with a 1943 Masanao blade:

It's a little blurry in zoom, but you can see the edge of the seppa sticking out:

[Bruce Pennington]

Here's a late war kaigunto I posted on a Warrelics thread Late War Kaigunto Discussion

 

[Tensho]

Thanks for taking the time to post these Bruce! Interesting read on Warrelics. I guess I need to take back what I said. I have never seen a type 98 or a good quality kai gunto with the the fuchi/seppa combo before now. 

Edited December 18, 2025 by Tensho

[Bruce Pennington]

Yes, 

I think it was a late-war invention.  That Masanao was 1943, so in my head not so "late", yet the Uniform Regulation change, which allowed these sort of changes, came out in 1943. 

 

[Jcstroud]

One interesting observation in respect to these swords is that the signed ones with suriaged nakago almost always were stamped on the upper right side of the nakago while the unsigned ones typically were stamped on the upper left of the nakago as were most Tenshozan Tanrenjo blades. Blades from Takayama forge typically used the 4 mm fishhook barbed circled anchor stamp. In my humble and not so educated opinion.😁

[Kiipu]

John, a rather interesting observation I must say. Many thanks for sharing.

[NotANinja]

Well, thank you all for such a wealth of knowledge! Before now I did not even know such a thing existed so thank you! 

Edited December 18, 2025 by NotANinja