Won an auction

[Yves]

Hi guys, after a long time looking for something. I've just won an action on this helmet. Trying to submit it for shinsa now, but seems very difficult as no date has been scheduled for 2026 due to capacity problems in Japan. 
 

Edited Wednesday at 08:49 AM by Yves

[ROKUJURO]

Could be MYOCHIN NOBUIE.

Perhaps also post in the TRANSLATION section.

[Yves]

The antiques auction firm is a reputable firm in Japan. There is also a date inscription which says august 1523. 

As far as all the sources go that I've consulted, they all, including the auction firm confirmed Myochin Nobuie. Not sure if another translation would confirm whether it's real or a fake. 

 

[Gakusee]

Well, yes, it clearly says Nobuie. But please do some background reading as the vast majority of these helmets are signed that way in homage to THE Nobuie. In other words, you should almost treat that type of signature as though you encountered a sword signed Bishu Osafune Sukesada (ie, general school work, even if it is of high quality).  There are only a handful of helmets authenticated to the actual Nobuie. 

Nevertheless, this looks like a very nice helmet, so congrats on the acquisition. 

[Yves]

18 minutes ago, Gakusee said:

Well, yes, it clearly says Nobuie. But please do some background reading as the vast majority of these helmets are signed that way in homage to THE Nobuie. In other words, you should almost treat that type of signature as though you encountered a sword signed Bishu Osafune Sukesada (ie, general school work, even if it is of high quality).  There are only a handful of helmets authenticated to the actual Nobuie. 

Nevertheless, this looks like a very nice helmet, so congrats on the acquisition. 

Well after looking around and discussing katchu, it seems that these things are never 100% sure...Meanwhile talked to my fellow country member Luc and he seems to ascern that the kao is also Nobuie (in this case Nobuie 2) but Nobuie 1 & 2 seem to be from around the same time frame. Could be an attribution. Who knows for sure. 

Edited Wednesday at 05:14 PM by Yves

[Gakusee]

Luc will know well and great you have talked to him. 

[Yves]

backside dating

[ROKUJURO]

Yves,

as mentioned before, this is better posted in the TRANSLATION section.

[Yves]

Hi Jean,

Chatgpt does a briljant job translating. It says: "Daiei 3 + 8e month + a good day"

Edited yesterday at 01:02 PM by Yves

[John C]

Yves:

Bottom line is a very nice legit helmet.

As I haven't started collecting katchu yet, I have a question. Is there any relationship between the family mon and Nobuie? I was thinking that a samurai would "buy locally" and was wondering if the location of the clan somehow relates to the area where Nobuie worked.

 

John C. 

[Yves]

Nothing for sure, so take it with a grain of salt. But my research so far:
The mon is from the Watanabe clan. They were retainers of the Mori. 
To note specifically is that the helmet is dated, 8th month of Daiei 3, if the inscriptions can be considered as correct. 
Correctly calculated it seems that the 8th month in accordance with the Japanese way of calculating, would actually mean Oct. 1523.

Anyway, 1523 was the year that Mori Motonari became Daimyo. More in particular, he became daimyo after a succession crisis when the jong daimyo Mōri Kōmatsumaru died in 1523 and because he was nominated/asked by 2 of his vazals, among whom a certain Watanabe (found different first names) in July of that year. The official nomination of Motonari was signed by 15 of his vazals. Motonari seems to have entered Koriyama-Jo somewhere at the end of September/beginning of October. After that there was a period of trouble, where some of his vazals seem to have rebelled against him (among which the former Watanabe, who was executed in 1523 as a consequence of a cleansing operation undertaken by Mori Motonari because of the rebellion -https://mouri.gozaru.jp/monogatari3.html - these are recounted stories which were written down at some point so the actually amount of truth is under debate)
His son Toru was allowed to leave but was later pardonned and returned to the Mori Clan. He saved his lord during a battle somewhere in 1543 by posing as him and returning in the battle to allow Motonari to escape. Subsequently most Watanabe's received important posts in the Mori Clan and were remembered during the Mori Clan's New Year's Kachu Kaiki.

However, Nobuie was in Eastern Japan while the Mori and Watanabe's were in Western Japan. The mon could be a later addition, who knows for sure. Don't know if new helmets would travel all over the country. So anything is conjecture at best at this point, but the coincidence in the dates is remarkable if you ask me. Theoretically it would have taken a helmet ca. 30-35 days to get from Nobuie to the Mori domain. So it is possible.

Anyway I haven't overpaid it, so in the worst case I own a nice helmet with a fake signature but at a price which is acceptable even when it is not what it is supposed to be. 

I have asked the Mori museum if any records would exist about an exchange of important helmets which could have been given to the Watanabe's in relation to their initial support of Mori Motonari. 

Edited 20 hours ago by Yves

[YOJIMBO]

mon is relevant, it could have been exchanged 100 times.

[Yves]

1 hour ago, YOJIMBO said:

mon is relevant, it could have been exchanged 100 times.

Agree, as I said, with a grain of salt.

My main goal is evaluating the mei/kaō + date consistency and whether the cutting/patina looks period. I’ll post raking-light closeups of the mei/kaō and the dated inscription as soon as I can.

Edited 17 hours ago by Yves

[YOJIMBO]

12 hours ago, YOJIMBO said:

mon je relevantní, mohlo být vyměněno 100krát.

Well, sorry, I made a mistake in the previous post. It should have been IRRELEVANT. Same as the signature.

[Yves]

3 hours ago, YOJIMBO said:

Well, sorry, I made a mistake in the previous post. It should have been IRRELEVANT. Same as the signature.

Ok, opinions may vary.