Hoshi bachi. Help again please!

[Matsunoki]

Still trying to learn, still getting confused!

All opinions welcome…..Edo or later? Showa maybe?

Looks to have some age and it is multiplate iron but…????

Thanks for any help and guidance!

All the best.Colin.

[Matsunoki]

Perhaps I should show at least some courage and voice an opinion.

So, I think it’s a late Edo recreation of an earlier style. I think it was once fully mounted and had one of those very wide flaring outwards shikoro. It’s not great but it’s not repro. Erm….maybe. 

…..but I’m probably wrong. 

[Luc T]

Hard to say… it looks young.  Late edo, showa, gendai.who is going to tell us?

[uwe]

I think we can agree that this hachi is “not that old” and resembles a “shihō-jiro daienzan hoshi kabuto”. Nevertheless hard to place in the time frame Luc suggested…

So let me raise some questions:

 

What are these remnants between the edges inside?

Is the tehen no kanamono made of one piece?

 

Observations later…

[Matsunoki]

This was very cheap and I found it interesting so I have bought it. Useful learning experience??

A lot of work has gone into it but the one thing I have learned is that dating some of these can be very tricky.

 When it arrives I will provide all necessary info.

Many thanks looking

 

[Matsunoki]

@uwe @Luc T @Bugyotsuji
 

The hachi has now arrived via FEDEX (as usual an excellent service). Ignore all colours in the images. I have used an led torch.

 

Whilst I am an absolute beginner when it comes to Kabuto I have handled a lot of Japanese metalwork including pieces in iron and the first thing that struck me when I unpacked it was that it is “substantial” by that I mean heavy and solid and apparently very well made.(of course this is just my uneducated opinion!)

 

The “stuff” that was apparently oozing out between the edges of the plates is in fact layer upon layer of rust that has built up under the overlaps and in places is forcing the plates apart. The whole of the interior is covered in varying degrees of rust (ignore the colours in the attached images. The interior is a dark orange rusk colour all over)

 

This contrasts with the exterior condition that looks very well cared for and preserved.

 

The  tehen Kanetomo appears to be made from several different layers but very firmly fixed together. Nothing spins around. I can see “gaps” between the layers I think. One layer has the remains of a black patination.

 

The downward facing “arrows” on the exterior look well formed in copper and sit upon a plate that seems to be bronze that has acquired a pleasing mottled patina. That bronze plate  sits on top of the iron plate beneath it.

There are remnants of silk lacing where a shikoro was once attached.

 

To me it looks like the exterior has been very well looked after whilst the interior was slowly deteriorating presumably hidden by the lining.  The degree of layered rust inside does not suggest to me recent manufacture.

Please see attached images.

PLEASE! I really look forward to what you all have to say. I’m sure I’m wrong but I think it’s best to “have a go”…..I learn quickly from mistakes🙂

Many thanks. Colin

[Matsunoki]

I’m guessing I’ve inadvertently said something to offend you all as it’s gone very quiet. My apologies, no offence was ever intended. 
The Bachi came from a dealer in Japan who appears to split up old armours and sell the component parts, not that that makes any real difference.

Anyway thanks for your time and assistance.

[Lewis B]

Wish I could offer more educated opinion or comment about kabuto Colin. As a novice and because I can't find many examples online my main query would be the method to attach the tehen. It looks rather clunky for an early production, artisan made article. The fitment also looks quite crude with large gaps (as seen in the last pic). Perhaps these parts are later replacements. 

[Matsunoki]

@Lewis B

Thanks Lewis, appreciate your observations. There is so little research info available on this subject (unlike swords) I feel I may have slipped down an even darker rabbit hole! Still, I love a challenge!

I’ll have a closer look at the tehen, but it’s tricky when you don’t know what to look for!🙂

All the best. Colin.

 

[Lewis B]

Well I'm happy to educated. I can only compare expectations with what I see. Like you say, the reference sources are limited. Have you reached out to DT on FB? 

 

This also raises an eyebrow

 

[Matsunoki]

Lewis, can you elaborate please? What catches your eye? I think those split rivets are what secures the decorative “arrow like” features on the external. There are many of them and all seem to correlate to the location of those features. 

[uwe]

No eyebrows, Lewis 

 

These split shank rivets are for fastening the shinodare.
I stick on my opinion for the time being, Edo period “revival” piece!

[Matsunoki]

Thanks Lewis, thanks Uwe.

Uwe, just to quieten my annoying brain….are you saying in your opinion this is made in the Edo period as a revival of an earlier style or made post Edo  as a revival of an Edo style?

 

re the rust in the interior, should I gently start the linseed oil and white spirit preservation process? I guess it will just keep rusting if not? 

[Lewis B]

I circled the split rivet fastenings to point the feature out. If this was commonly used method to attach external decoration in the Edo period then I'm happy to have learned something. 

[Lewis B]

Just now, Matsunoki said:

Thanks Lewis, thanks Uwe.

Uwe, just to quieten my annoying brain….are you saying in your opinion this is made in the Edo period as a revival of an earlier style or made post Edo  as a revival of an Edo style?

 

re the rust in the interior, should I gently start the linseed oil and white spirit preservation process? I guess it will just keep rusting if not? 

If it's red rust, that means it's active. The UK isn't so humid (most of the time) but I think some preservation is called for. 

[uwe]

4 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

Thanks Lewis, thanks Uwe.

Uwe, just to quieten my annoying brain….are you saying in your opinion this is made in the Edo period as a revival of an earlier style or made post Edo  as a revival of an Edo style?

 

re the rust in the interior, should I gently start the linseed oil and white spirit preservation process? I guess it will just keep rusting if not? 

Yes, made to revive an earlier style…late Edo? The partial too uniform rivet heads inside make me doubt.
Try the mixture, it’s a good idea! 

[Bazza]

Colin san, not offended in the slightest, just to let you know.  A good and interesting purchase IMHO.

 

BaZZa.

[Iekatsu]

I agree with Uwe, late Edo period. Concerning the rust, knock the lose active red rust off with ivory/bone and then apply oil.