Exercise in online pics from a site, which Aoe is best?

[R_P]

So @Robert S Let us embark on an interesting exercise (it will be short lived i think) on which of the Aoe  below are of better quality than the other, which and why one is more Aoe than the other, which was made by a master? 

 

So we will be presented with 4 swords from Aoe school Kaji of the Nanbokucho period, all of them will be Mumei and all within acceptable measurements for daito. Most important they all came from the same shop in Tokyo and they were all photographed by the same photographer. 

 

I will post the pics so they can be downloaded and everyone that wants to participate can and we can see how most people online get to evaluate a sword with such limited information and standard pics. Perilous for sure!

 

We begin with sword 1 labeled as Aoe1 in pic file. 

 

Measurements:

Nagasa 70.9 cm 
Sori 1.6 cm 
Hamachi : 2.89 cm 
Kissaki width 2.12 cm 
Mune Kasane 0.51 cm 

 

The description:

Jigane -  Koitame hada and mokume hada mixed with jinie and Chirimen hada. There is Utusri. 

Hamon - Niedeki Sugu with Ashi and yo

Boshi - Midarekomi and Kinsuji

 

My personal take:

 

The Suguta is ok.

 

When I see how this sword has been made suriage I can appreciate how it has been done so the Hi lead nicely into the new Sugata. There is red rust on the Nakago and that shows perhaps the previous owner did not care very much for it (speculation). It could have been stored incorrectly and this is the result. The sword has 3 clear Mekugi ana and they conform to the age of the sword however red rust has infiltrated them also. There is slight damage under the Habaki area in the omote and it looks recent. I do not think the sword is in a good polish but the seller describes it as so. The omote is clearly the better side  for activity in the Jigane and the Hamon but there is Bo-hi and Soe-Hi on the omote and not on the ura, weird. The sword has damage or Kizu on the Omote half way up and it is not described in the sellers description. To see the Archetypical Chirimen Hada we can only really discern a clear picture from the omote side however the Hamon on the omote is in conjunction with varied Aoe hamon and not the archetypical tight Sugu we expect to see on either side of the sword. Any mention of Utsuri is hard to see in this sword, perhaps the polish is not as grand as stated by the seller. The overall condition is not one of appreciation. Given this polishing a sword in this condition would be good but there is a 0.51 Kasane on the sword so we might be risking the integrity of the Nagasa, maybe. Overall I would say this is very poor representation of Aoe. 

 

@Robert S What do you think on this one? I would love other collectors to chime in on their feelings based on what we get online and how this can be hard. Perhaps my personal take is wrong and that is where it is fun happens.

 

https://www.aoijapan.net/katana-mumeiattributed-as-aoe-school/

 

[R_P]

Here is Aoe2 in pic file

 

Measurements:

 

Nagasa - 70.5 cm 
Sori - 1.8 cm 
Hamachi -  3.24 cm 
Kissaki - 2.17 cm 
Mune Kasane - 0.76 cm

 

Description:

 

Jitetsu - Itame Hada with Jinie. Chikei and Utsuri.
Hamon - Koniedeki suguha with Ko-Ashi and yo work.

 

Notice no mention of Chirimen Hada....

 

My personal take:

 

The sword has an Ok sugata and presents itself proudly with large width at the Hamachi and prominent mune kasane. There is no Hi on the blade and it is Osuriage keeping a single mekugi ana that is in period with the nakago. The Nakago suriage is done generically and without much concern for the suguta or much care. The nakago leads well into the nagasa and we can see a consistent Hamon (generic to Aoe) leading up the whole sword. The chirimen hada is extremely rough and from the hamachi up to the first 3/4 of the blade you see satisfactory activity but it the tapers out and is inconsistent toward the later 1/4 moving toward the Kissaki. Any mention of utsuri is hidden behind a very old polish and cannot be fully appreciated in this condition. There are non serious flaws in the Shinogi-ji and yokote area. Overall is will say this is not the best quality but better than Aoe1. 

 

https://www.aoijapan.net/katana-mumeiaoe/

 

 

@Robert S Your personal view sir?

[Gakusee]

Ray,you cannot expect a thorough view based only on sugata, unless you only ask about shape….. With Aoe, one needs to look at:

1) Jigane: is it fine?

2) Utsuri: is it dan utsuri (common for the Nanbokucho Aoe you are sharing)

3) Hamon: are there delicate saka ashi so typical and desirable of Aoe?

 

Etc.

 

Unless you attach the side, angled photos showing these characteristics, one cannot formulate a proper view as the hadori obfuscates the hamon and one cannot opine on the utsuri etc

[R_P]

Here is Aoe3 in the pic file name

 

Measurements:

Nagasa - 71.2 cm

Sori - 2.1 cm

Hamachi - 3cm

Kasane - 0.66 cm

 

Jigane - Chirimen hada with tight mix of itame and mokume

Hamon - Sugu 

 

Personal take:

The Nakago on this sword is done with utmost care. The shaping on the Nakago as well as the patination shows conservation and a regard for the removal of a large part of the swords body. Because of the care on the Nakago the swords sugata leads gracefully from Nakago to Kissaki and is of Nanbokucho sugata. The Bo-hi leads very nicely across the mune and into the body of the Nakago uniformly with elegant consistency. The Jigane is also executed consistently and would be archetypal for Chirimen on Aoe. The suguha hamon is uniform and also done consistently.  In my personal opinion this sword is polished beautifully, the sword is elegant and it is indicative of high level Aoe work, it shows excellence. 

@Robert S personal take please?

 

[R_P]

19 minutes ago, Gakusee said:

Ray,you cannot expect a thorough view based only on sugata, unless you only ask about shape….. With Aoe, one needs to look at:

1) Jigane: is it fine?

2) Utsuri: is it dan utsuri (common for the Nanbokucho Aoe you are sharing)

3) Hamon: are there delicate saka ashi so typical and desirable of Aoe?

 

Etc.

 

Unless you attach the side, angled photos showing these characteristics, one cannot formulate a proper view as the hadori obfuscates the hamon and one cannot opine on the utsuri etc

Hi, yes i will add them if they were made available from the listing online but if the sword was presented without I cannot help that. This is what people need to deal with online though, navigating hard territory. Since you are here, will you comment on what you see please?

 

If you download the image it is quite detailed.

[R_P]

Ok last one 

 

Aoe4 in the pic files.

 

Fyi Daimyo blade

 

Measurements 

Nagasa - 69cm

Sori - 1.5 cm

Hamachi - 3.05cm

Kasane - 0.54 cm

 

Description:

Jigane -  Koitame hada and komokume mixed with jinie with sumihada

Hamon - Koniedeki suguha with kasha and yo

 

Personal take

Overall Sugata is good.

The Nakago is executed to a satisfactory level and leads nicely with the Bo-hi into the Nagasa. The hamachi is a bit small in this one. The polish is not the best but the jigane looks to be relatively consistent but hidden behind a bad polish. That is a shame given the Kasane at 0.54cm. 

I think the Hamon is executed beautifully. The sword has provenance and is docuneted so has the historical element going for it. Overall I think it has pedigree so commands respect but is not necessarily the best example of mumei Aoe in this condition.

 

https://www.aoijapan.net/katan-mumei-aoe-daimyo-ookubo-familys-sword/#google_vignette

 

@Robert S Your personal take?

[R_P]

Hi So I have been told the images are terrible, sorry bout that, links added and pics updated

 

 

[Mikaveli]

Just from what's presented, I don't like the shortened shape of the first two.

 

The third, as was mentioned, seems to have more thought put into the reshaping of the nakago.

 

For the fourth one, I don't know if it's just the photo, but from what I can see of the hada / shinogi ridge line, this lacks some refinement, so despite its provenance, I wouldn't buy it (unless suitably affordable). Rayhan mentions an issue with the polish, but I wouldn't have the confidence to see beyond that / take a punt...

[Gakusee]

8 hours ago, Rayhan said:

Hi, yes i will add them if they were made available from the listing online but if the sword was presented without I cannot help that. This is what people need to deal with online though, navigating hard territory. Since you are here, will you comment on what you see please?

 

If you download the image it is quite detailed.

On the basis of these photos, I would not buy any of these.

To me, an exciting hamon, full of hataraki, even if they are delicate and small ko-ashi, is a prerequisite.

Not only does that signify greater skill and steel but also I find it aesthetically more pleasing. Here I cannot discern that on the basis of these photos and all I can adjudge is the sugata. 

 

Frankly, probably because my expectations are high, as a Bizen collector I still have not bought an Aoe blades after all these years….

[R_P]

1 hour ago, Gakusee said:

On the basis of these photos, I would not buy any of these.

To me, an exciting hamon, full of hataraki, even if they are delicate and small ko-ashi, is a prerequisite.

Not only does that signify greater skill and steel but also I find it aesthetically more pleasing. Here I cannot discern that on the basis of these photos and all I can adjudge is the sugata. 

 

Frankly, probably because my expectations are high, as a Bizen collector I still have not bought an Aoe blades after all these years….

The links are there for better images and on Aoe3 a larger file, I think checking on a laptop might yield better results. Also the main OP is on quality and traits that can be discerned, no shopping involved 

[R_P]

really? no takers?

[Mushin]

 

5 hours ago, Rayhan said:

really? no takers?

Like Michael said, the pictures are not the best, even for most Aoi photos, but based on what I see here, I like number 3 best, followed a ways by number 4. Some of the reasons are the elegance of number three's sugata, the clarity of the utsori, very nice jihada and the quality of the hamon. The provenance of number 4 is wonderful, nice polish but just less nice than number three. But I kinda agree with Michael, I would probably not buy any of them. Also there are no pictures of the activity in jiba of number three so there is a dimension missing. For me, Aoe is definitely one of those schools I really want to see in hand as there are many subtleties that make a huge difference. Is this the kind of response you are hoping for Ray?

[R_P]

31 minutes ago, Mushin said:

 

Like Michael said, the pictures are not the best, even for most Aoi photos, but based on what I see here, I like number 3 best, followed a ways by number 4. Part of the reasons is the elegance of number three's sugata, the clarity of the utsori, very nice jihada and the quality of the hamon. The provenance of number 4 is wonderful, nice polish but just less nice than number three. But I kinda agree with Michael, I would probably not buy any of them. Also there are no pictures of the activity in jibe of number three so there is a dimension missing. For me Aoe is definitely on o those schools I really want to see in hand as there are many subtleties that make a huge difference than I just can see here. Is this the kind of response you are hoping for Ray?

Ok i guess it's a flawed proposition @Brian please delete this thread 🙏 with my best intentions 

[Gakusee]

 

Don’t get discouraged - people cannot tell much in some cases.  I think most of those who commented conjecture that 3 is probably the best. Number 2 has interesting hataraki and utsuri but the jigane is tired….And of Nanbokucho Aoe one expects high quality and refined jigane. 

 

 

[Alex A]

Also bear in mind that some folks struggle with unsigned shortened swords, even if Nanbokucho or earlier.

[Kanenaga]

Add in one more? #5 ?

Same vendor, same photographer. 74.2 cm.

 

 

[nulldevice]

47 minutes ago, Kanenaga said:

Add in one more? #5 ?

Same vendor, same photographer. 74.2 cm.

 

 

Was this blade at SF? 

The utsuri looks outstanding and reminiscent of a particular Aoe blade at the SF show a few weeks back. It also looks to have the fine saka ashi that as Michael mentioned earlier, are something desired in Aoe blades of the period. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

When one thinks of quality Aoe-Den, only #5 matches expectations.

[Rivkin]

5 hours ago, Kanenaga said:

Add in one more? #5 ?

Same vendor, same photographer. 74.2 cm.

 

Top tier blade. Already Juyo with 95 probability.

The rest are overcompressed images, without oshigata I can't see anything.

For some reason the others also over-reflect the later Aoe features, which by itself is fine, but Aoe is very diverse and capable of very interesting things in Kamakura.

Most "chirimen" blades I held were by comparison rougher and plainer.

[R_P]

16 hours ago, Kanenaga said:

Add in one more? #5 ?

Same vendor, same photographer. 74.2 cm.

 

 

Aoe5 "Oh La La, Mi Amore!"

Yep that is a nice Aoe, Has exactly the features one would want, in terms of the quality is there a link to the listing to see the pics in detail. I am sorry I know this is a flawed exercise because when posting the pics they lose the HD, please let me know. But I LOVE it from what I see so far.  

 

[R_P]

14 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

When one thinks of quality Aoe-Den, only #5 matches expectations.

I like Aoe3 too but I do see the love for #5 yep!

[Lewis B]

It's often said utsuri is ethereal but 3 blades I've seen recently including Aoe #5 its just screaming out. The others were a Den Chogi and Kagemitsu. Gorgeous pieces I would love to own if only my pockets were deep enough. 

[Lewis B]

This one on the other hand. Rough comes to mind. Yet its Juyo from problematic 1975 Shinsa. Would it get Juyo today? Methinks not.

 

https://www.aoijapan.com/katana-mumei-aoe-schoolthe-25th-juyo-token/

[Jussi Ekholm]

I think one difficult thing with Aoe is that there are literally hundreds of NBTHK mumei Aoe attributions and the range is huge.

 

Of the examples in this thread in my opinion number 5 is the best. It is Jūyō 21 session, and good quality sword. Unfortunately the shape and size is not what I would be after. For me number 3 would be second butI do not have enough info on that sword to say anything of importance. These might be only 2 I might look for but unfortunately I believe both carry a decent price tag which they deserve.

 

It is rough to say but I would put 1,2,4,6 in the same bucket and they are not interesting to me personally. Yeah I know two of them are Jūyō swords but many Jūyō swords are uninspiring to me.

 

However if would have to buy an item out of these I would mostly look into number 2 as it seems to be decent item for the price. Still I would rather put the same money into some other sword than this Aoe.

 

You can see good quality image of Aoe 5 here: https://web.archive.org/web/20240113073202/https://www.aoijapan.com/img/sword/2023/23761-2.jpg

[eternal_newbie]

10 hours ago, Rayhan said:

Aoe5 "Oh La La, Mi Amore!"

Yep that is a nice Aoe, Has exactly the features one would want, in terms of the quality is there a link to the listing to see the pics in detail. I am sorry I know this is a flawed exercise because when posting the pics they lose the HD, please let me know. But I LOVE it from what I see so far.  

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20240113073202/https://www.aoijapan.com/img/sword/2023/23761-2.jpg

https://web.archive.org/web/20240113073202/https://www.aoijapan.com/img/sword/2023/23761-3.jpg

https://web.archive.org/web/20240113062400/https://www.aoijapan.com/img/sword/2023/23761-4.jpg

https://web.archive.org/web/20240113062400/https://www.aoijapan.com/img/sword/2023/23761paper-1.jpg

https://web.archive.org/web/20240113062401/https://www.aoijapan.com/img/sword/2023/23761sayagaki.jpg

[R_P]

Ok so after seeing the better images on Aoe5 I see A Lot of slight kizu, thing that will be unexpected for a sword of this age but just not appropriate for top level quality Aoe, still a nice sword though!

 

Most of the issues are within the Boshi and Hamon and top half of the sword. Shame for such an elegant blade, but still wonderful. 

[Kanenaga]

As Jussi and others have noted, there is a wide range of Aoe craftsmanship, some swords are rather plain.

Tanobe-sensei says #5 is an outstanding example of Nanbokucho Aoe, with dan utsuri.

 

And yes, this blade was in the Aoe display at the SF show.

[R_P]

No doubt #5 is a beautiful sword itself just the top areas condition is slightly degraded and visible in the images but that is down to personal preference. Aoe has little middle ground you generally see them in excellent condition or very bad condition. 

[Gakusee]

3 hours ago, Rayhan said:

No doubt #5 is a beautiful sword itself just the top areas condition is slightly degraded and visible in the images but that is down to personal preference. Aoe has little middle ground you generally see them in excellent condition or very bad condition. 

You are looking at a grossly enlarged image and over exaggerated kizu. In real life these will be barely visible due to their tiny size. However, the positive features, ie the vivid and rich utsuri combined with the rich hamon activities will always be there and visible. 
 

Speaking from my own experience, I have noticed that we as collectors have started obsessing over the slightest defect in these usually highly enlarged images, which, however, with the sword in hand, are either not noticeable or barely visible. To compensate for that, I have started scaling down the image, still on a high resolution large screen, to real size (usually measured at yokote and/or machi) in order to get a sense of the real scale of the kizu. 
 

I think it is clear that 3 and 5 are good quality Nambokucho Aoe. 

[nulldevice]

As for a better view of the dan utsuri for #5

 

@Jussi Ekholm thanks for the first link and for I imagine, archiving all of the pictures of this sword from Aoi! You rock!

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20240113062400/https://www.aoijapan.com/img/sword/2023/23761-4.jpg