Shintōgo Kunimitsu Tantō....diamond in the rough?

[Mushin]

Jacques, where did you see a claim that these traits were exclusive to Shinto Kunimitsu? He said "commonly found," which is correct. Is this a language issue. or are you just being provocative? It's guess you are right: it's pointless to fight human stupidity...

[Jacques]

45 minutes ago, Mushin said:

Jacques, where did you see a claim that these traits were exclusive to Shinto Kunimitsu? He said "commonly found," which is correct. Is this a language issue. or are you just being provocative? It's guess you are right: it's pointless to fight human stupidity...

I don't think Lewis wrote that in the sense that you mean (I'm starting to know him quite well). If that is indeed the case, it's completely pointless.

Now, you're right about one thing: I shouldn't have responded to you. 

Edited January 29 by Jacques

[Lewis B]

I think everyone here knows you VERY well too Jacques. Personally I'm veering more towards provocative at this point. 

I meant it in exactly the way Bobby says. No one said the traits are unique to Shintogo but the similarities in forging style of that Awataguchi Nobukuni tanto and an archetypical Shintogo produced tanto suggest that there had been some influence in swordmaking technology, through contact with Nobukuni or any of his close associates. Historical references put them in the same region of Japan at the same time. 

So you're discounting any influence by the Awataguchi school? And why is it pointless to attempt to understand and test hypotheses on the origins and influences on Shintogo's swordmaking. No one will truly know of course since there are no contemporary historical documents to consult, but that still shouldn't prevent discussion on the subject. 

[Jacques]

Quote

I think everyone here knows you VERY well too Jacques

Absolutely no, I can see when someone knows or don't know.  You are far from being in this case. I have no reason to be modest. I know my limits, and you have a very long way to go before you reach them. Am I clear enough?

[Rivkin]

1 hour ago, Jacques said:

Absolutely no, I can see when someone knows or don't know.  You are far from being in this case. I have no reason to be modest. I know my limits, and you have a very long way to go before you reach them. Am I clear enough?

You are doing it wrong, Jacques. You are supposed to say "I am but an eternal student of the sword, humble in knowledge". You friend is then supposed to chime in with "Jacques is a Scholarly Scholar! Celestial star, who shines over the True Path", etc. etc..

[Okan]

[Lewis B]

If I had a time machine I would like to know more about Norishige's origins. Nothing is known about his father or earliest swordmaking experience. I believe he was already trained in the basics before arriving at the Shintogo Kunimitsu workshop and was there for a short time to master the new forging techniques pioneered by Shintogo, which he then incorporated into his own distinctive forging style. 

 

In contrast to the other connected members of the atelier Norishige seems to be a bit of an outsider, coming from a backwater province with no strong tradition of sword making prior to Norishige and therefore no apparent pedigree. There are Shintogo's 3 sons, Yukimitsu (son of nidai Bungo Yukihira, not the earlier gobankaji Yukihira), Masamune (son, adopted son or younger brother of Yukimitsu) and then this outlier Norishige. Shintogo must have thought highly of this young smith to take him on. 

[Lewis B]

Thanks to @MassiveMoonHehfor posting the Yamanaka Newsletters. A quick perusal uncovered a Kokuho tanto signed Kunimitsu. What caught my eye was that this blade is described as having an iori-mune, which is incredibly rare amongst all Shintogo tanto. I have only come across one other Shintogo tanto with iori-mune and that was described as Katakiriha-tsukuri. 

The takenoko-zori is also intriguing. 

 

Anyone have a link to oshigata or more info on this Kokuho sword?

 

Extract from the Newsletter

Kunimitsu  国光 (新藤五)

 

Tanto

Length: 42.3 cm (this has to be total length)

Width: 2.1 cm

 

Shape and Construction:

  Hiratsukuri, and takenoko sori.

The mune is ihorimune.

 

Hamon:

 The Hamon is hiro suguha with ashi, and there are abundant nie all along the hamon, and especially along the hamon edge. Kinsuji are seen along the hamon too.

 

Boshi:

  The boshi has a komaru with a kaeri which is a little longer than the usual Kunimitsu, and there are small hakikake at the very tip of the boshi.

 

Jitetsu and Hada:

  The hada is ko-itame hada and tightly forged. There are abundant ji nie all along

the blade, and these form chikei in places.

 

Nakago:

  The Nakago has been shortened a little and the tip is cut in kiri. The file marks are katte

sagari of which very little can be seen due to age. There are two mekugi ana and the one at the top has been partially plugged.

 There is a two character inscription “Kunimitsu” on the omote side. 

 

  This Kunimitsu is probably is probably the least conventional Kunimitsu work, and when compared to the other two kokuho Kunimitsu, it is a little Inferior, although the steel of the blade certainly is just as good as the other two.

  Kunimitsu is more of a master at making tanto than making tachi. There are very few tachi blades by Kunimitsu, although tanto are seen in greater numbers.

  Also, Kunimitsu is regarded as one of the better sword smiths who made tanto, along with such other masters like Awataguchi Toshiro Yoshimitsu, Soshu Masamune, Sa, and Rai Kunitoshi, and possibly Rai Kunimitsu and Kunitsugu.

  The fact that the hamon of this Kunimitsu is hiro suguha attests to the fact that this blade has been well preserved.

 

[Jacques]

Quote

Length: 42.3 cm (this has to be total length)

 

Wonder   Nagasa 25.2 cm 

Edited February 4 by Jacques

[nulldevice]

5 hours ago, Lewis B said:

 

  This Kunimitsu is probably is probably the least conventional Kunimitsu work, and when compared to the other two kokuho Kunimitsu, it is a little Inferior, although the steel of the blade certainly is just as good as the other two.

  Kunimitsu is more of a master at making tanto than making tachi. There are very few tachi blades by Kunimitsu, although tanto are seen in greater numbers.

  Also, Kunimitsu is regarded as one of the better sword smiths who made tanto, along with such other masters like Awataguchi Toshiro Yoshimitsu, Soshu Masamune, Sa, and Rai Kunitoshi, and possibly Rai Kunimitsu and Kunitsugu.

  The fact that the hamon of this Kunimitsu is hiro suguha attests to the fact that this blade has been well preserved.

 

 

I just wanted to add some clarity to the above statement. I found this clarification by Honma Junji regarding Kunimitsu and his tachi to be enlightening to highlight what Shintogo Kunimitsu's "inferior tachi" really means.

 

Quote

While I have discussed tantō first because Kunimitsu's representative works are mostly tantō, there are also excellent tachi. The piece in the Seikadō collection shown in photographs in this book is one example. However, the traditional assessment that Shintōgo's tachi are inferior requires qualification—they are inferior only in comparison to his tantō. His tachi are generally slender, and even here his mastery of suguha is evident. Compared to, say, suguha tachi by Rai Kunitoshi, his are decidedly superior.

 

[Lewis B]

Something that has always made me think is why Shintogo would sign his Mei the way he does in that unique style. The books suggest his father was Awataguchi Kunitsuna and that connection may explain why for example he strikes the vertical radical for kuni in a centrally positioned, straight line. Maybe because this is how his father chiselled the kanji? The positioning and dimensions of the tachi mei are also very similar placed, being placed high up the nakago near the munemachi and along the shinogi-ji.

Here is one example from the famous Onimaru Kunitsuna tachi. 

 

  

 

Edited March 30 by Lewis B

[CSM101]

Just some informations...

 

Token Bijutsu 588.pdf

[Lewis B]

The tanto's journey continues and its now back from the togishi Saito sensei. He did an amazing job and with only a 7 month turnaround, which included a new shirasaya and habaki refurbishment. To have accepted the commission was a huge honour as he is considered the foremost polisher of Soshuden blades. As I mentioned previously he believes it can get mumei Shintogo. He handled the large rust spot under the koshi-bi horimono so well. 

Since I have only seen work from this atelier in photos and video, here are some comparative blades authenticated as Shintogo. First, arguably Kunimitsu's magnum opus. The Aizu Shintogo screenshot from a video taken at last years Masamune show. 

 

 

Same tanto but from the 1960's Masamune and his School exhibition. The photos taken under optimal lighting conditions and in perfect focus. There is something about film that digital has a tough time competing. 

 

 

Another tanto by Shintogo also polished by Saito.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 20 by Lewis B

[Lewis B]

The 1306 tanto would be a great sword to compare but I have yet to find high quality images. 

 

These are the images of the polished tanto. Not the optimum lighting or resolution but hopfully you can see the fine chikei that is so noticeable in the other examples. And is that nie-utsuri?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 20 by Lewis B

[Lewis B]

The rough diamond polished up nicely IMHO. Now the real test will be if they can be swayed re the Mei. It's not unknown for contentious swords to get Horyu multiple times. Fingers crossed not in this case. Next stop is resubmission to the Shinsa in Sept. 

Edited June 20 by Lewis B

[MassiveMoonHeh]

9 hours ago, Lewis B said:

The rough diamond polished up nicely IMHO. Now the real test will be if they can be swayed re the Mei. It's not unknown for contentious swords to get Horyu multiple times. Fingers crossed not in this case. Next stop is resubmission to the Shinsa in Sept. 

Good luck! 🤞

[Mushin]

It's looking promising! Fingers crossed!!!!

[Matsunoki]

Good luck Lewis. This has been a very interesting story and deserves a happy ending.

[Jussi Ekholm]

Wonderful news that the polisher also judges it as potential Shintōgo blade as he has probably seen and polished many.

 

I hope that the mei stays intact regardless of NBTHK judgement. I do understand that currently NBTHK judgement carries huge financial weight for high end blades. 

[Lewis B]

3 hours ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

Wonderful news that the polisher also judges it as potential Shintōgo blade as he has probably seen and polished many.

 

I hope that the mei stays intact regardless of NBTHK judgement. I do understand that currently NBTHK judgement carries huge financial weight for high end blades. 

Since the Shinsa panel will only judge the blade in front of them and not consider any external commentary or factor in any historical nuance without precedent I am resigned to the strong possibility it will come back Horyu. Even though its clear daimei/daisaku blades were being generated in the atelier as early as 1306.

 

If it gets Horyu again, then Plan B is to put it through NTHK who operate a different set of standards when evaluating a blade and call it a day. 

 

I didn't start this project to squeeze monetary value out of the sword. For me its all about preserving history and giving the blade the best possible chance for future generations. Dogma changes and evolves over time, Shinsa panels come and go and new discoveries eg the dated Chogi blade, reset the history books. The sword is more important than any one organization and its draconian appraisal methods.

 

Its survived 718 years, ubu and intact, I want it to survive another 718 years, with or without a piece of paper. The blade will be judged on its own merits as a late period Shintogo Kunimitsu and the unofficial comments of Tanobe and Saito sensei carry enough weight for me as its current custodian. 

Edited June 22 by Lewis B

[MassiveMoonHeh]

It is a gorgeous looking blade. You have done well Lewis and have done well by the sword. I would be pretty chuffed with if I were you. Again well done mate and seriously good luck - we are all routing for you!

[Fuuten]

Topics with these kinds of tales are the best. I'll be rooting for you too!

[Lewis B]

I just had some excellent and unexpected news. The dealer contacted the NBTHK and was told by the office that organises the Shinsa sessions, that a blade can be accompanied by any supporting documentation deemed relevant by the submitting party. This is contrary to what I had read but might be useful information for anyone in a similar situation. I take back the disparaging comments I said earlier about the NBTHK.

[Rivkin]

26 minutes ago, Lewis B said:

I just had some excellent and unexpected news. The dealer contacted the NBTHK and was told by the office that organises the Shinsa sessions, that a blade can be accompanied by any supporting documentation deemed relevant by the submitting party. This is contrary to what I had read but might be useful information for anyone in a similar situation. I take back the disparaging comments I said earlier about the NBTHK.

Its interesting to know. A while ago I was told to submit only the blade, but the last couple of years I kept hearing stories that Honami papers can now follow the sword to basic paper levels, not just Juyo.

This might be related to some i-i-interesting high end attributions at TH that seem to date from the last two years.

[nulldevice]

2 hours ago, Rivkin said:

Its interesting to know. A while ago I was told to submit only the blade, but the last couple of years I kept hearing stories that Honami papers can now follow the sword to basic paper levels, not just Juyo.

This might be related to some i-i-interesting high end attributions at TH that seem to date from the last two years.

 

That is an interesting development for sure! I wonder if they would even go to include the Hon'ami origami in the TH kanteisho like they do at Juyo+? That would certainly add a lot of new variety to the Hozon/TH shinsa. 

[Rivkin]

3 hours ago, nulldevice said:

 

That is an interesting development for sure! I wonder if they would even go to include the Hon'ami origami in the TH kanteisho like they do at Juyo+? That would certainly add a lot of new variety to the Hozon/TH shinsa. 

 

If rumors are true and apparently they might be... I surely hope they will start mentioning it on TH, but given their conservatism I doubt they will - and I fear this will create quite a few headscratching TH where you have no idea where exactly this name and not some another came from.

[Hoshi]

I am rooting for you @lewis, this is a great adventure. 

 

Quote

The dealer contacted the NBTHK and was told by the office that organises the Shinsa sessions, that a blade can be accompanied by any supporting documentation deemed relevant by the submitting party.

 

This has always been the case. There is no assurance that they will read it, though, given the volume that they face. It is one of the only ways to get certain fittings unstuck from the perpetual "Horyu" state. Furthermore, when it comes to provenance information, they are unfortunately not consistent in incorporating the information, even when provided with well-respected primary source data. For high-level submissions, I can be helpful to write a short dossier on a submission, but not engage in theories outside the mainstream. Remain 100% factual, and collate only canonical or primary sources.

 

Best,

 

Hoshi

[Lewis B]

27 minutes ago, Hoshi said:

a short dossier on a submission, but not engage in theories outside the mainstream. Remain 100% factual, and collate only canonical or primary sources.

 

Thanks @Hoshi. This is exactly the approach I plan to take. Attempting to rewrite the history of the early Soshuden tradition will only be counterproductive and ensure anything that might be relevant to the case is overlooked, or worse, deliberately ignored. I plan to keep the supporting document to a single side of paper with a couple of illustrative images, using bulletpoints and not a lot of verbage. 

 

@Rivkin that's an interesting development of which I was unaware. The next 5-10 years could be quite interesting as its clear from recent Shinsa results the tectonic plates within the organisation are shifting. 

Edited June 27 by Lewis B

[eternal_newbie]

While I echo everyone else's good wishes and support, I would also add that pass or fail, this is a very valuable thread as documentation of how a new blade/mei for an important smith would be discovered, restored and researched, as well as how the process for convincing the NBTHK to sign off on it would take place. I believe this will be an important resource for collectors in the future, especially in the English-speaking world.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Was under the impression that supporting information would be old Honami papers, historical records, Daimyo inventory tags, Sayagaki, and other evidence in that realm.