Netsuke Central

[ROKUJURO]

Yes, exactly! A nice one!

[John C]

I have two questions about obi-hasami netsuke. 

Firstly, I was wondering how these were actually worn. I assume the himo would go through the two holes often found at the top, however did the sagemono just hang from these holes? It seems like it would swing too much. Were the hooked ends worn toward the body or away from the body?

Secondly, many I have seen are made from bone. Is there some significance to using bone or was it just a tough material?

 

John C.

[Bugyotsuji]

John, antler like yours, or bone, we will see nowadays more often since ivory has been largely legislated away. Just plain and smooth on the back? A sweet thing.

 

These were designed for the width of an average obi, fitting or locking behind the obi, with the decoration facing outwards. Your comment about ‘swinging’ makes sense and may account for the relative shortness of time that these were in fashion. I have two or three examples, ranging from crude to fairly good, but I was blown away recently by a beautiful one for around $8,000 in a Kyoto antiques fair!

[Matsunoki]

5 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

but I was blown away recently by a beautiful one for around $8,000 in a Kyoto antiques fair!

And…….?🙂

[ROKUJURO]

Colin,

of course Piers bought it right away! 

[Bugyotsuji]

22 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

And…….?🙂

Whole post just disappeared again. Grrr…

And I smiled at the dealer. 
Those grapes were probably sour anyway.

Besides, I had found some other neat stuff, and there is No Way I would pay that for an obi-hasami!

Here’s my modest contribution to this thread, the best one I have. (One of mine has virtually no decoration at all.)

 

The front

 

the reverse

[Matsunoki]

7 minutes ago, Bugyotsuji said:

the reverse

Is that really the reverse Piers?….seems strange if it isn’t seen…..but I know nothing about this type of netsuke 

[Bugyotsuji]

2 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Is that really the reverse Piers?….seems strange if it isn’t seen…..but I know nothing about this type of netsuke 

The blind leading the blind. The signature is usually hidden? I wonder if Max or Rosemary could help us?

[Matsunoki]

1 hour ago, Bugyotsuji said:

I wonder if Max or Rosemary could help us?

Possibly……you ask em? I’ve never had dealings there……🙂…..bit too posh for me…

[John C]

I got curious when trying to figure out what the design on my latest one was. Just this design on top and plain everywhere else. Mumei.

I know they aren't a particularly old design.

 

John C.

[Bugyotsuji]

Nice. Reminds me of the Hojo uroko (dragon scale) kamon, piece of third triangle down left, with a hanabishi (?) top right.

 

 

[John C]

hmm...maru-hanabishi with triangles. Could have been carved to match someone's kimono pattern.

 

John C.

[mecox]

@Bugyotsuji  @Matsunoki     any clues what this is?  I have no idea.  May be just a fish?  Came from Japan  30 years ago, 3.5 cm long. 

 

 

          

[ROKUJURO]

A chopstick rest?

[Bugyotsuji]

4 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said:

A chopstick rest?

They usually come in sets, but good idea, maybe better than a brush rest.

[mecox]

any idea of the material?  I can see some type of grain elongate to the figure.    Or a comment.

[Bugyotsuji]

Looks like elephant ivory from the Schreger lines in one of those shots, Mal. Not so old though, probably 20th C. (Just a gut feeling)

[John C]

I found an obi-hasami online that had small eyelets installed in the himotoshi. It got me thinking that if the sagemono were worn under the haori jacket, it wouldn't swing much and with the sagemono hanging free in the front, it would be more accessible.

John C.

[Matsunoki]

6 hours ago, mecox said:

any idea of the material?  I can see some type of grain elongate to the figure.    Or a comment.

Hi Mal

Agree with Piers…..elephant ivory and fairly “modern”. As for function….most likely (imo) a tourist souvenir of modest quality. Is there a small hole going into the mouth in which case could be pendant or a key ring having lost its loop. 

[mecox]

Thanks Colin,  yes small hole in mouth.  OK likely a gift happy item.  If of stated material, then I suppose difficult to sell?

[Matsunoki]

9 minutes ago, mecox said:

If of stated material, then I suppose difficult to sell?

Indeed depending on your local laws. Illegal to sell in UK.

[John C]

I have a general question about obi-hasami netsuke. The ones that I have all contain obi slots around the same length. But not exactly. There is a range. 

Question: were these made to order or were they made enmasse because obi were a standard width (kind of like men's ties - the same width, depending on the fad at the time)?

Follow-up question: ( I get two, right?) Were there changes in obi width throughout certain time periods, from which we could ascertain the time period for a corresponding netsuke?

 

John C. 

[ROKUJURO]

John,

as far as I know, OBI were made by folding in two the fabric coming from the standard loom so that the width of OBI is usually close to one SHAKU. I can take measures later.

(To be clear, I don't wear them, I use them for sword bags!  )

[John C]

Okay. So were men's obi not as wide as women's? The opening for the obi-hasami is around 3 inches (7,5 cm). At one shaku, I guess one could fold it in half twice and it would be about the right width.

 

John C.

[ROKUJURO]

John,

you are of course correct! I did not think of men's OBI, which are definitively narrower. I only know those used in KYUDO which are indeed about 75 mm wide, if I remember correctly.

[Bugyotsuji]

Finding myself reluctant to join this conversation as clothing styles varied greatly not only by class but also by area of Japan. Kimono fashions in Edo for example, were quite different from Kyoto and Osaka. I can imagine someone looking at examples of Netsuke and then trying them on their obi for size, grip, etc., but there must have been some measure of flexibility rather than one rigid rule. Some obi were relatively hard, others soft.

As pointed out above, the obi-hasami type of Netsuke may have been somewhat impractical and that could be one reason (beside the ending of the era) that it was not in fashion for long.

[John C]

Thanks, Piers. I too am not a fashionista. And I think I did read somewhere the longevity of this type of netsuke was fairly short, having become popular just about the time western clothing with pockets also became popular.

 

John C.

 

[Clark]

It is a great pleasure to meet you all here. I am an independent amateur netsuke collector from China. Inspired by the insightful contributions from the members of this community, I would like to share some observations regarding the netsuke market in China.

Due to complex historical and cultural factors, there are virtually no large-scale forums or dedicated platforms for netsuke collectors in China, leading to a significant lack of information sharing. However, because of our linguistic and cultural affinities with Japan, the Chinese market sees a large volume of netsuke "re-imported" from Japan. Unfortunately, about 95% of these are fakes. The notorious "Shozan" and "Gyokuseki" signatures frequently discussed here are, in fact, ubiquitous on the Chinese secondhand market.

Setting those aside, there are occasionally hidden gems to be found. (It should be noted that China maintains very strict regulations on ivory; therefore, I personally only collect boxwood netsuke). I have acquired a few representative pieces that I would like to share with you. The first is a Japanese Hyottoko mask netsuke, and the second is an Okame mask netsuke. While the craftsmanship of these two pieces may not be considered exquisite, they both possess a distinct patina that suggests a clear sense of history. The Hyottoko mask is signed "Suizan" (水山). I am quite unfamiliar with this name and am certain it does not belong to a famous master. The other piece is unsigned.

Regarding their age, I personally date them between 1850 and 1920. While this period may not be the most "ideal" for some collectors, it is quite acceptable given their acquisition price.

Regarding the mass-produced forgeries, I have learned that they largely originate from provinces in Southern China. There are specialized sellers in our secondhand markets dealing specifically in these items, priced anywhere from a few dollars to tens of dollars. Many people fall victim to these scams, and it is a great pity that we lack a platform like this one to help collectors identify and correct such errors.

Thank you once again for your sharing.

Greetings from China.

[Bugyotsuji]

Hi Clark, welcome to our corner here! First of all, thank you for your honesty and objectivity, which are rare qualities today, and refreshingly appreciated! It is good to know that what we suspected is not far from the truth. Also it is very interesting to learn about where these NLO are manufactured.

 

Your masks have a pleasingly rustic appearance. Mingei 民芸. They could easily be older than your estimate, I feel. The Okame looks almost Korean. The closest signature I have found so far is a Suisen 水仙, but not yet a Suizan unfortunately. Can we see the backs of your two? 
 

Anyway, we are all learning here. Sadly I let some of my good Noh mask Netsuke go, but I still have a couple somewhere, oh, and a hyottoko ojime!
 

Thank you for posting and introducing yourself! 
 

[SpunkyMatney]

Hello, new to the forum, my name is Kenneth. I recently bought 11 "netsuke" from an auction in TN. and was wondering if they were real or modern fakes. After doing some research I'm pretty certain they are fakes, some may be ivory fakes, but not for sure. Any help would be greatly appreciated! I love them either way, but hoping, just maybe, that a couple are real (doubtful). They are all signed, minus the frog on the lily pad. Thank you in advance, I'm looking forward to learning more about this wonderful art! I have closer pictures of each one, let me know if I should post closer pics of any that may look real.