Question about high and low shinogi

[jeremy]

Hey guys 

Is there a "rule" so to speak  on how much difference there has to be between the kasane and shinogikasane in order to be classified high and low shinogi? For example,  if a blade has a kasane of 5.5mm at the kasane and 6.9mm at the shinogikasane would that be classified as high shinogi ?

Jeremy 

[Natichu]

I'm intrigued by this as well, so figured I'd try to bump this thread up. My sense is it's likely an overall impression ("vibe of the thing" for those that like The Castle) rather than a fixed ratio or numerical difference. But would love to hear from those with more experience! 

[Brian]

That was my thought as well.

[Rivkin]

I would think not.

Low shinogi the difference can be close to zero. In sue Bizen and a few others.

Yamato is a definition of high shinogi. Typically has 0.6 (usually 0.7) -0.75cm kasane so 0.55 is very thin for it. It has shinogi kasane I think often in excess of 10mm but I don't have the books in front of me.

 

So, no this blade does not sound like Yamato or high shinogi, but then its a very secondary information.

[jeremy]

I actually asked sumie kashima at usagiya this question.  She said she believes my sword is high shinogi with those measurements.  Just to be clear what I'm referring to here. Measurement A is 5.5mm and measurement B is 6.9mm

[Brano]

It is not unusual for a seller to list kasane for shinogi and not for mune, so the buyer expects a more robust blade
I have not found any publication that would publish data for kasane for both mune and shinogi
However, Token Bijutsu masterpieces oshigata always has data for kasane (I assume always measured for mune)

 

@ Kirill: Motokasane larger than 8mm for Koto blades are really rare and I don't know of any blade with a kasane over 10mm (measured for mune)

[Rivkin]

7 minutes ago, Brano said:

@ Kirill: Motokasane larger than 8mm for Koto blades are really rare and I don't know of any blade with a kasane over 10mm (measured for mune)

10mm at shinogi.

[Jacques]

Kasane is always mesured at the mune; when the kasane is thin with a substantial difference between the kasane and the distance between the 2 shinogi, the shinogi is said to be high. 

[Rivkin]

Yamato=high shinogi.

The school is known for thick kasane relative to others in Nambokucho period, mostly around 0.7cm but much larger thickness at shinogi, which if I remember correctly exceeds 1cm.

[reinhard]

Usually the difference between mune-kasane and shinogi-kasane is neglectable in blades made of the shinogi-tsukuri type.

Some blades however show a difference so remarkable the widths should be mentioned separately.

Some scholars do, others don't.

 

reinhard

 

 

[Jacques]

9 hours ago, Rivkin said:

Yamato=high shinogi.

The school is known for thick kasane relative to others in Nambokucho period, mostly around 0.7cm but much larger thickness at shinogi, which if I remember correctly exceeds 1cm.

Kirill@

The thickness of the kasane depends on the nagasa; 0.7cm kasane on a blade of 75 cm or more is a thin kasane and is a strong kasane on a blade of 65 or less

[Jussi Ekholm]

I wouldn't think there is specific mm or percentage that would make the classification. If you can see a noticeable difference with eye I would say it is a high shinogi.

 

The very thick kasane measurements are not too often seen in normal sized Kotō blades but with very large ōdachi or naginata in original form the kasane can be large. And massive kasane for some that I personally see as unusable sized.