Daisho with a flood(?) theme - any better suggestions?

[Jesta]

I recently acquired this daisho set. I love the look, and the execution is excellent, but I am a bit stumped by the theme. It appears to show a flood (?) with the tori gate on the shoto, and the shrine on the daito submerged, while the bridges and trees remain above water. There are boats sailing by in the distance. 

 

My best guess is that this is the Great Kanto Flood of 1742, although I am not sure why a natural disaster would be a suitable theme for tsuba… 

 

Can anyone shed any light on this? Are there other examples of flood motifs?

 

 

[Geraint]

Dear Jusyn.

 

I am wondering if the treatment suggest mist partially obscuring the Torii and temple.  (I am having trouble with the angle of the torii, visually I find it disturbing!)

 

All the best.

[thutson]

I would second the idea that it depicts mist rather than a flood, although I can't explain the angle of the Toriii, which looks very odd.

 

Best,

Tom

[Matsunoki]

The angle of the Torii could be suggesting that it has been toppled in a flood. 
The presence of the two small sailboats suggests we are looking at water…..but the distant perspective is a bit confusing/challenging.

The fact that just some the treetops are “above water” is significant?
I’d vote flood but wouldn’t bet my home on it. 

[Jesta]

Mist would make sense, now that you suggest it. There is a different depiction of water under the bridge, so the softer lines could well be mist. 
I remain unsure about the Torii depiction, but the shrine roof is also at an angle, so it may be a stylistic choice for perspective…?

 

Mist would also make sense where the sails of the boats can be seen, but not the boats themselves, implying a kind of dreamy atmosphere where taller items like Torii, shrines, trees, and masts all poke their heads above the clouds. 

 

The signature is Gotō Etsujō (1642 - 1708) so it can’t be the 1742 flood, although there were certainly floods before that one… 

Edited April 30 by Jesta
Added some thoughts

[Bugyotsuji]

If it’s a flood, would it be a tsunami?

[Jesta]

1 hour ago, Bugyotsuji said:

If it’s a flood, would it be a tsunami?

Not necessarily, the Great Kanto Flood of 1742 was caused by massive amounts of rain falling from a pair of typhoons. This overloaded the rivers and caused their banks to break, flooding the area. 

 

[Matsunoki]

Looking again at the perspective. I believe the artist is asking us to stand on the high ground in the foreground and look down on the flood. The bridges could be across a raging river valley that is feeding down into the  flood. Mist does not explain the toppled Torii and the small boats appear to be fully visible and floating, not hidden.

Anyway, it’s thought provoking.

[Lewis B]

My first opinion is that it is at least a partial depiction of a flood event. The submersed Torii, tops of trees, what appear to be a pair of sails on one side of each tsuba etc. Any idea what the vertical poles with golden supporting elements represent?  I like the depictions and storytelling in these tsuba. 

[Rawa]

Posting here fuchi/kashira with flood motif I suppose

https://ebay.us/m/3Dj7ut

[Jesta]

That’s much more definite than mine, it’s very clear that there is water involved. Could it be the torii gates that are in the sea?

[Rawa]

Its more like a roof but it can be allegory.

[FlorianB]

22 hours ago, Rawa said:

fuchi/kashira with flood motif

Sorry, can't see any flood.

On the Fuchi is a bridge over a stream depicted, on the Kashira foliage with glimpses of a roof and torii.

[Jesta]

Reviving this topic because I came across this in an auction (apologies for the low-res pic - it’s a screenshot of a zoomed in pic on the app).

The theme is pretty much identical, but they have mashed together the various parts depicted on the daisho (omote and ura) into a single scene.

 

 

So… I am still wondering if this was a well-known motif. It would seem strange for it to be repeated in what looks like something for the quick-sale market in the late Edo period (or Meiji period) that wasn’t something commonly known. 

Are there any resources compiling the typical motifs used on tsuba so that they can be searched?

 

 

 

[Jesta]

I went down a bit of a rabbit hole on this one. One possible answer that I have come up with is that this is a view of Futami Bay and the temple and torii there. 

This seems to have been a famous view (see woodblock below), the angle of the torii would fit with the angle on the tsuba, there is a temple or shrine in the mid-ground, and there is space for boats on the left. 

 

[Charlie C]

Hi Justyn,

 

Beautiful piece! I am a 悦乗 fan so this looks extra cool to me.

 

I think I have seen this motif somewhere else. Will reply again once I find it.

 

Best.

C. C.

[ROKUJURO]

Might that be ISE JINGU? (伊勢神宮)

[Matsunoki]

18 hours ago, Jesta said:

Reviving this topic because I came across this in an auction

 

1 hour ago, Charlie C said:

Beautiful piece! I am a 悦乗 fan so this looks extra cool to me.

First impression for me of  the latest piece in question above  is that it is a “Nagoya mono”……poor quality work from a “maker” famous for cobbling together assorted original designs into a pseudo “Mino Goto” type work. Cast and vaguely hand finished to various degrees in an alloy that is not shakudo. 
As for the original fine daisho tsuba…..I remain convinced that they depict a flood…..to me it’s fairly obvious and I wonder if it relates to the great “Yoshi River flood” of C1590 that wiped (virtually) out the Bizen tradition of swordsmithing? That would be a fitting theme for tsuba and I once owned the same design on a very high quality Meiji period shakudo and mixed metal box where assorted bridges and buildings were peeking above a massive flood whilst a couple of survivors poled along on small boats, clearly a disaster scene.

Just my opinion which counts for little🙂

[Jesta]

5 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

 

First impression for me of  the latest piece in question above  is that it is a “Nagoya mono”……poor quality work from a “maker” famous for cobbling together assorted original designs into a pseudo “Mino Goto” type work. Cast and vaguely hand finished to various degrees in an alloy that is not shakudo. 

Agreed. It’s very poor quality, and looks like it was made fast for a quick sale. 

 

5 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

As for the original fine daisho tsuba…..I remain convinced that they depict a flood…..

That was my initial thought. My skepticism around this is that there is no clear depiction of water, so it could be mist or fog, and the bridge is not submerged. Since this scene gets repeated line-by-line in the cheap tsuba I am thinking that it must be a recognisable scene that has elements that immediately trigger the audience to know what it is. 

[Matsunoki]

8 hours ago, Jesta said:

That was my initial thought. My skepticism around this is that there is no clear depiction of water, so it could be mist or fog, and the bridge is not submerged. Since this scene gets repeated line-by-line in the cheap tsuba I am thinking that it must be a recognisable scene that has elements that immediately trigger the audience to know what it is. 

Hi Justin, there are a few telltales in my opinion…..🙂

The bridge is on high ground over a deep valley and on one tsuba we can clearly see a raging river below.

Torii do not normally stand at that angle suggesting severe damage

Small boats do not float on mist or fog

The fact that I had similar on a really serious metalwork box form Meiji but where the flood was 100% obvious convinces me even more.…..and if you ever get tired of them….🙂

Best. C.

[Jesta]

Good points, and well-made. I have these labelled as “flood” in my collection.

I chose the possibility that it was Futami Bay partly because the torii seems to be at that angle on the rock in the woodblock, and the bridge has similarities. The water under the bridge is definitely water, whereas whatever is covering the torii and the shrine is… ambiguous. 

 

Do you have any thoughts on the sticks (poles?) supported or held by the ropes on the omote side? I don’t know what they could be, but they get repeated too. 

 

As for getting tired of them, I haven’t yet been able to bring myself to sell any of my collection.  I gave one tsuba away because I thought that it deserved a better home, but I am rather attached to the ones that I have. Hard to do anything, but accumulate 

[Matsunoki]

1 hour ago, Jesta said:

Do you have any thoughts on the sticks (poles?) supported or held by the ropes on the omote side? I don’t know what they could be, but they get repeated too. 

I had assumed they were masts on boats but hadn’t really researched that idea. 
…….yes, selling really good tsuba is really hard n’est pas? They are a beautiful pair, lucky you!

…..but I’m not at all envious 🙂

[Exclus1ve]

On 4/30/2025 at 12:20 AM, Jesta said:

The signature is Gotō Etsujō (1642 - 1708) so it can’t be the 1742 flood, although there were certainly floods before that one… 

You should not pay attention to mei here, I think the quality is quite simple. However, the theme is quite interesting, it looks like a flood.

Edited yesterday at 12:01 AM by Exclus1ve