Can anyone lend a hand?

[kuromido]

Hello everyone, I am hoping someone can shead some light on this piece and let me know how I did.

I believe the blade is a wakazashi, 38.7cm and is shinogi-takashi in shape. My best shot at the mei is (Please, no spit-takes) :lol:

 

taira yasushiro nobuyoshi saku.

 

I would like to know if I am close (I am a greenhorn to this) and any other info. about this maker anyone can provide. I have added several pics but they may be too big a file size. If so let me know and I will try again.

I Thank you all,

Pete

[Nobody]

You correctly deciphered the all kanji, but the readings for the first three of them are not correct. They read Heianjo (平安城), which means Kyoto (京都).

[george trotter]

Hi Pete,

For your first try you have done very well...correct identification, but wrong reading for first three Kanji...your Taira Yasu Shiro is correct...but pronounced "Hei an jo"... a sword smith group in Heian Castle in Yamashiro province...their descendants are still going...I have a WWII period gendaito signed "Heianjo Sadayoshi".

Yours reads :Hei An Jo Nobu Yoshi Saku.

I can only find one Nobuyoshi with this mei...he is Yamashiro Prov. 1532 and has Hawley number NOB 590 (from the pics, your mei looks "fresh", that is. chiselled a bit later than 1532 period).

 

Sword type is wakizashi size as you say and in reasonably good condition and nice iron fittings...will clean up nicely with a gentle wipe with a light oil and some TLC. (VERY carefully). The shape (without detailed pics) suggests a Naginata naoshi (altered polearm blade) in shape, or possibly shortened Nagamaki (a more slender polearm blade). I think you have landed on a nice little wakizashi...complete and in reasonable condition...appears quite old and is nicely signed.

 

Regard,

George.

[Lee Bray]

The shape (without detailed pics) suggests a Naginata naoshi (altered polearm blade) in shape, or possibly shortened Nagamaki (a more slender polearm blade).

 

Regard,

George.

 

With mei?

Unless it's gimei, it must be shobu-zukuri no?

[nagamaki - Franco]

The shape (without detailed pics) suggests a Naginata naoshi (altered polearm blade) in shape, or possibly shortened Nagamaki (a more slender polearm blade).

 

Hi, I see no evidence of this wakizashi having been altered other than perhaps being slightly machi okuri.

[John A Stuart]

I concur. It is a wakizashi by design. It might be really nice with a polish. John

[george trotter]

Hi Lee, nagamaki and John,

I said the shape "suggests" a naginata or nagamaki naoshi...I also thought Shobu-zukuri at first, but the shinogi does not follow through to the tip...the shinogi ends before the tip, as in a Naginata/nagamaki naoshi, so I discounted it. I am happy to agree with you that the sword was made as an original wakizashi. What do you think of the mei?

Regards,

George.

[leo]

Hi, George,

this looks like a nice little wakizashi with an ubu nakago.

 

The nakago and mei really look good but rather like 1800 than 1532. On the other hand, why should someody bother to fake the signature of an rather unimportant smith?

 

Imho his leaves basically 2 possibilities:

1. Some dedicated follower of Heianjo Nobuyoshi, maybe a descendant, had this mei chiselled at a later time in memory of his ancestor.

2. The nakago has indeed been preserved to it´s present state by leaving it in the tsuka for a long long time, keeping it in a dry place at the same time. Unusual but not impossible, either.

 

All the best,

Martin S

[george trotter]

Hi Martin...yes, a nice little sword...Steve can be pleased...a nice find.

The same thoughts went through my head about the "fresh" appearing mei...and also the why this would be done...I think your two possiblilities are quite reasonable.

I am curious as to whether the hamon is yakitsume? Could you check the tip Steve and let us know if the tempered edge curls around and returns a little bit back down the back edge...or runs off into space without returning at the tip?

Regards,

George.

[kuromido]

Hello George, It is hard to say with certainty but I am 90% sure that it has a omaru boshi

Running about 1" back from the point. Here is the best pic I can muster.

Also, I just want to say thanks for everyones input, Truly a amazing forum!

Cheers, PeteD

[nagamaki - Franco]

Good Afternoon,

 

Shapes ... http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/styles.html ... and more shapes

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/glossary.htm .

[kuromido]

Shapes ... ... and more shapes

 

OOPS, I'm sorry.

When I said shinogi-takashi in shape, I was referring to the blades cross section.

If the blade tapers (gets thinner) from the shinogi towards the mune rather than being the same thickness ,was I correct?

Thanks for the heads up.

PeteD

[nagamaki - Franco]

When I said shinogi-takashi in shape, I was referring to the blades cross section.

If the blade tapers (gets thinner) from the shinogi towards the mune rather than being the same thickness ,was I correct?

 

Judge for yourself as you have the sword in hand to better determine the angles ... http://nippon.to.free.fr/Scaal_site/Images/Shinogi.jpg

 

edit: thoughts; as we look at the diagram linked above collectors should be noting in their minds just how important it is to have a good polisher, because here we can see how changing the slightest angles or niku can effectively change important characteristics of a sword. It should also make the collector aware and appreciate some of the difficulties a shinsa judge faces in performing kantei on swords that have been polished incorrectly.

[kuromido]

Thank you franco for the link.

I was going by pg 56 in yumoto's book and did not know that there were more than one of that type.

I can use all the help afforded!

Cheers,

PeteD

[george trotter]

Hi , Steve

Looking at the boshi it does seem to return.

Franco, thanks for those links...much larger/clearer than the one I referred to on p.53 of Nagayama. Looking at Nagayama again with a glass this time, I now see that in his tiny graphic he also finishes its shinogi just short of the tip...pardon me an' my ole eyes...

I think I'll go back to painting my doors, can't do too much damage there...and keep my trap shut...

 

Regards,

George.

[kuromido]

You correctly deciphered the all kanji, but the readings for the first three of them are not correct. They read Heianjo (平安城), which means Kyoto (京都)

 

I am alittle confused on this. It says that I correctly deciphered the kanji but read them wrong. Does this mean that

1 the kanji does not read taira yasu shiro

2 that kanji has 2 meanings? taira yasu shiro and heianjo

What am I missing?

also how do I learn to read the proper one? I have been using the kanji info in yumoto's book and R. Stien's website.

Can you clarify and possibly point me towards print materials that will help?

I feel like I am asking alot so please let me know if I am overstepping.

Thanks sincerely

PeterD

[John A Stuart]

Japanese is written using a modified Chinese system combining Hanzi with Japanese elements. The Hanzi, in Japanese Kanji, can in most cases be read with either Chinese vocalisation, Onyomi or Japanese vocalisation Kunyomi, which may be vocalised in multiple ways. Add to this, Nanori, which are ways to vocalise alternative names. You need books that give the various ways these Kanji may be 'read', vocalised and then familiarise yourself with what is more likely the 'reading' in a given combination or case. Google, "Japanese Art Signatures" by Self and Hirose, and " Japanese Names and How To Read Them" by Koop and Inada. John

[Nobody]

Generally, every kanji has more than at least two readings.

 

According to my dictionary;

平 reads hei, byo, taira, hira, or other 10 more.

安 reads a, an, sada, yasu, or yasushi.

城 reads ki, kuni, sane, shige, jo, shiro, nari, or mura.

 

So, your readings for each kanji were not incorrect. However, “平安城” is a proper noun which is another name of Kyoto, and it should read Heianjo.

It is usually very difficult to read a proper noun correctly even for us, unless you know its reading beforehand. If you have some knowledge about history and culture, it will be a little easier to read proper nouns.

[kuromido]

I have a question on the menuki on this wak. I hope it won't be viewed as unrelated as it might help in dating? The menuki are something I have never seen before. They are made of clay or pitch or another brittle material I am not aware of. They were then covered in thick silver foil. Both are damaged so I cant make out what they are.

Has anyone seen menuki like these? :?

 

Thanks, PeterD

[John A Stuart]

Peter, I think what you are seeing is not a menuki made of a base material and then wrapped in foil, but, a menuki made of thin soft metal plate (copper, shakudo, gold, silver, shibuichi) formed on dies and then finish carved with a resin applied in the cavity to reinforce the metal and prepare for mounting. John

[kuromido]

Hello All, I have been researching this blade the best I can and came across the "nihonto club.com" in the process.

George mentioned that this blade is most likely NOB590. On the site they have an option to search by mei and in doing so I came apon NOB 116 which signs exactly as my blade. I am wondering (no offense to you george) if there are other deciding aspects that anyone might see to push the identification in one way or the other. Is NOB 116 more likely the smith because of this?

 

Thanks to everyone, PeterD

http://nihontoclub.com/view/smiths/meis ... =nobuyoshi

[george trotter]

Hi Peter,

No offense taken mate...we are all here to learn. I looked up the site you posted...I couldn't open a link to the actual mei you mentioned, but, the bad news is that your NOB 116 is the wrong "Nobu"...different kanji altogether. I mentioned NOB 590 as having the same mei as yours, but as NOB 590 is 1532 and your nakago and mei look "fresh" I said you should look at more recent times...There are a lot of Nobuyoshis, but according to a quick look in Hawley and Toko Taikan, relatively few listed in Yamashiro/Settsu in Shinto-Shinshinto times....and none seem to sign Heianjo. Your blade looks like quite good quality though...it is definitely worth further research. Welcome to the word of trying to find out who/when/where...

regards,

George.

[kuromido]

Thanks again George. I have known how hard it can be but never "First hand"

Sorry the link would not open. Here is one that might work better (even though I will continue to look to a later smith)

I can't find much online about nakago shapes and nakago-jiri in relation to schools/eras, Can anyone post some leads?

Thanks again george,

PeterD

http://nihontoclub.com/smiths/NOB116

[kuromido]

Hi george, You are correct sir! The nobu is a different kanji. Wishful thinking on my part.

Its back to the books.

Thanks,

PeterD