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kaneyoshi


markc

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Hi everyone,

I could do with some assistance with this one please. I have just aquired a gunto signed "kaneyoshi kore saku" it has chu-suguha temper and forging grain is tight itame-hada. My problem is i have obtained a copy of sloughs (hawley not as yet) and he lists only 4 kaneyoshi in his book and to my limited knowledge there were 6 kaneyoshi operating during the ww2 period. Does anybody have any idea which one this may be or could it just be a good blade with a gimei signature.There is no other stamps anywhere on the nakgo to be seen and there is no evidence that any have been removed. This sword has changed hands a few times this year and originally was sold by a respected ebayer who sells many swords and who has been discussed favourably on this forum in the past.

Any assistance or thoughts with this one would be much appreciated

thanks

markc

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Hi Mark, :)

 

I found one KANEYOSHI as a SEKI KAJI TOSHO:兼吉 (Kaneyoshi)松原 正造(real name)

 

小谷 包義 (Kotani Kaneyoshi): 上作 (JO SAKU)

 

松原 兼吉 (Matsubara Kaneyoshi):上作 (JO SAKU) probably the same as the seki one.

 

http://home.earthlink.net/~ttstein/kaneyos2.jpg

 

http://home.earthlink.net/~ttstein/kaneyosh.jpg

 

I would say that your sword is from Matsubara Kaneyoshi, but like you I am still studying and might be wrong(again!)

 

I am sure some friendly guys will help you better very soon. :)

 

Regards

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Hello Joe, :)

 

No problem. ;)

 

When I had a look at the mei it appeared poorly(cheepy?) written to me as it is sometime the case with ww2 swords(mass produced, lack of time to forge and sign).

 

So I guessed it could be a quickly made showato by the Kaneyoshi Seki smith.

 

You are right about the kanji that does not match.

 

Did you check your books to see who this may be?

 

Regards

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Two seki smiths match on the two Kanji

Okada: Smith name: 兼義 (Kaneyoshi) Real Name: 岡田 武

Another that I cannot translate the realname: Smith name: 兼義 (Kaneyoshi) Real Name: 河合 義文

-> Google translate would call it Kawai Yoshibumi, but I am not buying it.

 

I don't think this was made by Okada, so that would leave the only other option to be the second guy. With all that said, I think that this is a gimei. I think one of the better references is to talk to the seller and ask him what he knows about the blade. It looks like this was sold by "Showa22" on eBay. He may be able to help.

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I think that this is a gimei

 

This is what I thought too. But I dared not to tell it.

 

My reasoning is simple(I know too much :oops: ), when a gunto is poorly signed it makes me think of a low grade showato. But if the mei pretends to be a skilled war smith's one, I am always wondering if it is a gimei as I would hardly understand why a skilled smith would have signed its nakago so badly after doing a great job with the blade.

 

 

Sorry for my english.

 

Regards

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Thank you gentleman for your replies and effort you have put in to reasearching this post.

To clear things up this sword was originally sold by the ebayer mentioned earlier in the year but this was purchased from another respected ebayer who gives 100% gurantee that items sold are completly original and as stated in the listing.

After consideration of your comments you have confirmed what i suspected that this blade is gimei, with reference to sloughs and comparing the kanji for "kane" and "yoshi" they are almost identical (given a small allowance for the difference in handwriting)to kawai kaneyoshi.

i determined this by doing a rubbing of the tang and slightly enlargeing it on a scanner and then superimposing it over the mei for kawai kaneyoshi on page 74 of sloughs. The suspect thing is the quality of the mei and the large gap between kane and yoshi and also the lack of tang stamps or a date.

Having said that the blade is good but as you say it could be showato and completely machine made and oil quenched by a completly different swordsmith who was making blades in a hurry. I will be talking to the seller today.

thank you again for your replies and assistance with this one. Goes to show education in the intricacys of Japanese swords and swordsmiths is paramount.

Markc

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Hi, We sold this particular sword on eBay, we guarantee that this sword is not a fake and is 100% original. The sword was purchased originally from Maruyama Antiques eBay username showa22, I am sure that you know Yuzo, who has great knowledge in this subject. I joined this forum only to say shame on you all, to dishonor this seller. Who are you to claim to be experts in this field? Give this seller the opportunity to reply. Don't be so hasty to judge and say that this sword is a Fake, you have no right nor the expertise to do so. This is why I hate forums. Elite Militaria Pty. Ltd.

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Below is an e-mail that we just received from Yuzo - Maruyama Antiques - eBay username showa22

 

Hello,

 

I found Kaneyoshi name in my sword dictionary, His real name is Kawai Yoshifumi

河合義文, born in 1900 and lived in Kajita village, Kamo-gun Gifu prefectuer.

He made swords as a Rikugun Jumei sword smith during WW2 and signed Kaneyoshi

兼義 . This is a gunine Kaneyoshi 兼義 sword and they are confused with other same name Kaneyoshi but different Kanji writing 兼吉.

 

Regards,

Yuzo

 

 

I think this Forum owes a big apology to Yuzo and I hope that you all learned a valuable lesson. Don't give an opinion unless you are 100% sure, and even if you are sure double check before dishonoring a seller.

 

I will add the picture once I work out how to do it.

 

Elite Militaria Pty. Ltd.

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Hello Elite Militaria Pty. Ltd., I looked back over the posts on this sword and I do not see where anyone has called it a FAKE. There is just normal conversation about a signature that does not follow an usual formulae of work. I think you may have been a bit hasty in thinking so, but, if you think so, be assured no one is infallible and mistakes are corrected if found to be so. In general this forum is a learning place and no harm is intended to anyone or their business. In fact, until you mentioned it I was unaware of who the seller was. John

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Hi John

 

The buyer markc, wrote to me this morning that this Forum had advised him that the sword is a GIMEI (FAKE) so he immediately shipped the sword back to us for a full refund. Some members claiming to be experts, should know better.

 

Like SwordGuyJoe who wrote: I don't think this was made by Okada, so that would leave the only other option to be the second guy. With all that said, I think that this is a gimei. I think one of the better references is to talk to the seller and ask him what he knows about the blade. It looks like this was sold by "Showa22" on eBay. He may be able to help. Then another self proclaimed expert Bruno wrote:

 

I think that this is a gimei

 

This is what I thought too. But I dared not to tell it.

 

My reasoning is simple(I know too much ), when a gunto is poorly signed it makes me think of a low grade showato. But if the mei pretends to be a skilled war smith's one, I am always wondering if it is a gimei as I would hardly understand why a skilled smith would have signed its nakago so badly after doing a great job with the blade.

 

The harm has already been done by this Forum claiming to be Experts. Elite Militaria Pty. Ltd.

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Now I understand your ire. I think this was a case of buyers remorse. It happens when comments can disaffect a persons confidence, especially when new to a subject. I hope anyone reading this realises that these are opinions only and a judgement must come from someone who is accredited as being able to give a professional judgement, something that is rarely obtained on an online forum no matter the good intentions. As you say a good lesson in thinking 90% and commenting the other 10. John

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This is what this self proclaimed Forum of so called experts did to 'markc' who just wanted some information on a Sword the he he purchased from us on eBay.

 

This is the e-mail that we received this morning that started this whole thing thanks to this forum.

 

I have had some experts look at this

sword and in their opinion it is "gimei" or fake

made by a low grade showato smith with a fake

signature and possibly machine made and oil

quenched. in you listing you give 100% guarantee

of originality. i have not left any feedback on

this item.how do we proceed from here?

thanks mark casey

 

Do the members of this Forum now see the error in their ways? Elite Militaria Pty. Ltd.

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In this post Markc asked for the forum's opinion on a sword he just bought - I gave him just that. I did not say that I was an expert, I just opened a few books, found the information I posted and that was it. I also said that the buyer should contact "Showa22" for more information as I know him to be a fair and open seller.

 

Also, although I am not an expert, I know enough to know that gimei does not say anything about the quality of a blade - but simply that the mei is in question. As recommended on this forum (that people only care enough about to sign in to bash people who are trying to help) is to buy online as everything is gimei as a proper evaluation (in hand) is not possible.

 

Also note, if guaranteed 100% authentic, then the buyer should submit to shinsa for authentication and I am sure that the seller would stand by the findings of the post. Overall, MarkC got exactly what he asked for - an opinion...

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What does the word GIMEI mean? Does this word mean Fake? Did you not say this sword is a Fake in your expert opinion?

 

Hence markc thinks this sword is Fake and has already mailed it back for a full refund. Why don't you admit it, you gave an opinion that this sword was a Fake on yourself proclaimed knowledge as an expert, just don't give an opinion in the future if you have no expert knowledge on the subject. Elite Militaria Pty. Ltd.

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sorry to joe, bruno, john and others for causing this mess, my references to this forum should have been worded differently to the seller. i did not intend to bring this forum into disrepute. i value the opinions of the members of the forum as this to many ,as well as myself ,is the only way of finding out information that is normally not available in any other media regarding Japanese swords.

again my apologies for causing members of this forum to be hauled over the coals in this manner.

thank you markc

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To Elite Militaria; I can find no individual claim of "expert" to persons replying to the sword in question. Opinions, good or bad, can be obtained anywhere from anyone. As someone who collected militaria for many years before the internet was around, I can personally vouch for this one. Mark actually says in one post:

 

After consideration of your comments you have confirmed what i suspected that this blade is gimei,

 

Mark sought outside opinions and obtained them. Had opinions been different (right or wrong) this really wouldn't be an issue for you or Mark.

 

Gimei, in the clearest definition means simpley "false signature" in the context that the physical inscription was not made by the person that made the blade. These can be anything from outright misleading or misrepresentations for obvious financial gain, attributions made later by someone convinced the sword was made by that smith, or other reasons, but certainly does not imply the blade is a fake as in made in a country other than Japan and represented to be Japanese made. This may be known to you, but I'm stating it for clarity.

 

I will be the first to say that if you ask 10 different people about a sword, you'll get 10 different answers. Forums.....*any* forum..... magnifies this number. I will also be the first (and have stated in the past) the forums have a very limited ability to judge things accurately from electronic images. Thus, the opinions are of limited value as well.

 

I will also say that I applaud your refund policy as a business and hope that you understand and accept this comment with the sincerety it is meant. Ebay is frequently the whipping post of many threads here due to the dubious nature of sellers that predate on buyers there without regard to anything except profit. You gaurantee it's authenticity and are willing to stand behind that.

 

The essence of this matter is that this is a textbook example of "ask questions, do your research, and know what you're buying *before* you buy it". It will makes things far less complicated and cause a lot less hard feelings.

 

This transaction is a matter between buyer and seller and should remain such. Where Mark received information is less important than how he felt by seeking out outside opinions in the first place. It seems clear to me that Mark had his own questions which prompted his questions to begin with. How he and Elite Militaria deal with their transaction is their own matter.

 

I'm going to lock this thread from further comment, and leave this to the parties directly involved in the transaction.

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I'll echo what Ted said, but wanted to add the following:

Mark, I do find you at fault here. If you buy a sword off eBay, and ask opinions on it, then you should stick by your sale no matter what the outcome. That is why we allow eBay talk here. No buyers remourse please. You buy it, you keep it. Ask questions before you bid, and not after. A reminder to all. That is fair to the sellers.

 

To Elite Militaria...

I suggest you research the word "gimei" a bit before you accuse anyone of calling fake. It is said there are far more gimei signatures on genuine swords than real signatures. Gimei has been done for hundreds of years. It is entirely possible the sword is gimei, or not. It could be Showato, or Gendaito. All that will tell for certain is a shinsa. Would you care to submit it?

 

I have bought from Yuzo a few time before, and he has a decent reputation here. I don't see anything in this thread where any seller was criticised. Instead, a buyer took a chance on a handmade blade and backed out at the chance it was mass produced. I don't completely agree with that, but also stand behind my members and my forum. We do far more good than anything else. You want 50 other examples of where buyers were saved from fraud or otherwise? Not the case here, but please don't make generalizations.

 

A good time to remind everyone (especially newbies) to make it very clear that opinions are just that.

 

Regards,

Brian

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