Ghoul414 Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 Hi all, I am still learning and non traditional swords are a bit mystery for me, so I'm hoping someone would be kind enough to help verify some things for me before I waste money chasing air. I'm interested in buying this sword, where the buyer has very little information and only two photos so far, but I recognise the military mounts and leather field wrap: There is a small amount of rust on the blade, but I really like the hamon, and I've been after getting a wartime sword ever since I bought my older Nihonto. I have requested further pics (although I'm not sure I'll be able to convince them to remove the tsuka), but for now I have three concerns/queries. 1. Why is the saya blue underneath the leather? Is this traditional/normal? 2. Why is the seppa bending? (Are leather seppa original fittings on such blades?) 3. Does the hamon look oil quenched/machine made? I'm not familiar with the non-traditionally made blades, but if it weren't for the mounts I would have real trouble telling apart this hamon from actual Nihonto. I can't tell if that is my inexperience though... Also, if you see any red flags or issues I haven't noticed, please let me know. I look forward to hearing your thoughts, George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron M Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 So far I don’t see anything out of the ordinary. The blue is probably horn and the light is reflected. The bent seppa is probably from someone being to quick to take apart/reassemble everything. Leather seppa were acceptable as they could quiet any type of rattling or just to take space. As for the hamon, it doesn’t appear to be a “standard oily” hamon but hard to tell. If the price is reasonable then I would go for it. regards 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinalexander Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 Hi George, My two bobs worth. 1. Blue saya? ....to me it does look blue and if that is the case it could simply be a civilian wooden saya that was enlisted to military service. The blade/habaki/saya are made for each other so throwing a leather combat cover on it makes it regulation. Note halfway down the saya (under the leather) you see flat semegane which is the same as the flat ashi up top. All civilian under a leather combat cover.....nothing wrong with that although its often associated with late war. The leather has shrunk over time, again normal and now exposes the original colour of the saya...just my thoughts. 2. Bent seppa ....not sure if that bent seppa is leather or metal but in any event, it appears bent due to the broken chuso clip. No uncommon to have a broken clip due to mishandling post war. If you can find the correct length size, it will cost around $120 AUD. As Ron said above, leather seppa are not uncommon to tighten up the mounts. The interesting thing about this piece is that it has a central chuso button/clip (normally found on Type 94 earlier mounts) BUT it also has a combat cover with a (genuine) press stud that would accommodate a leather retaining strap that would go through the tsuba. I don't know why it would have both (others can speculate on that). Maybe better pics from top and bottom of tsuba. By the way, from the pics, the tsuba looks pierced which is also indicative of Type 94 mounts. 3. Traditionally made? ... I am the worst to determine that unless it hits me in the face, but I will say ....v/nice hamon! Blade just looks as if it could be heavy, wonder how long that is(?) ... but all round ....nice! Rob 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Pennington Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 Considering all of John's points, it is moderately likely the blade is an older blade donated, brought, or bought for the war, remounted in military fittings. As such, it's quite possible it's traditionally made. Having said that, we could all be wrong and it's simply a WWII showato re-fitted for one reason or another. Seeing the nakago, and close-ups of the hamon (temper line) would help. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensho Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 I am betting on the "blue" piece you're seeing is the copper collar for the saya that is covered in verdigris. Not sure why a leather cover is considered late war? I have owned 3 of them like this, 2 with pierced tsuba in higher end gunto mounts. Seems to be personal preference. Also, one of the ones talked about above had a button on saya along with chuso. On my example its for a leather tsuka cover that snaps onto the saya. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinalexander Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 45 minutes ago, Tensho said: Not sure why a leather cover is considered late war? Not referring to the cover,but the civilian saya underneath. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensho Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 51 minutes ago, robinalexander said: Not referring to the cover,but the civilian saya underneath. I don't see anything that points it out as civilian. Quite a few of these just have bare wood or painted saya with leather combat covers. Here's one of mine. The snap is for a tsuka cover, but the leather saya cover is far to shrunk now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghoul414 Posted February 19 Author Report Share Posted February 19 Thank you @Ron M, @robinalexander, @Bruce Pennington, and @Tensho for your thoughts, they are very much appreciated! I have had a few more pictures through from the seller now, and it looks like there may be some chips in the blade on the side not previously shown: Do they look like fatal flaws? Also, I've got some extra pictures of the tsuba and seppa. The metal seppa is actually bent! It almost looks intentional... The seller apparently can't remove the tsuka either - he says it is almost stuck on there. I wonder if it has been changed at some point? It would explain the field wrap / chuso mismatch. Finally, does anyone have a running estimate of value when compared to a normal Nihonto? I'm getting much better at valuing traditional swords mentally, but this is my first non traditional blade, and prices seem to range from £500 to £1500 when looking online (I hope to buy it tomorrow). Is that a normal range? And how would you value it without having any idea what's hiding under that tsuka? Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghoul414 Posted February 19 Author Report Share Posted February 19 Just relooking over my pictures on my phone, and noticed the hamon returning just before the habaki - that's a bit odd right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oli Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 You want really judge this sword with this pictures? If you are looking for are military sword it can be fine. If you are looking for a Gendaito or older sword i wouldn't buy it, Regards Oli 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinalexander Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 Agree with Oli above....from the latest pics the tsuba is not pierced, you have a broken chuso clip, an 'out of polish' used blade albeit with an attractive hamon IMO. But it is an authentic WW2 Type 98. So without exposing the nakago, I think the bottom end of your estimate would apply. To pay more would increase the gamble and more often than not, they just don't pay off. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghoul414 Posted February 20 Author Report Share Posted February 20 Thanks again @oli & @robinalexander. In the end it sold at auction for £560 + 0.24% auction fees, so ~£700. Although it pained me not to bid higher, I took your advice Rob and walked away - I still want to know what's under that darned handle, but I guess that's someone else's mystery to unravel now On the bright side, I'm still super glad I started this thread, I've learnt so much, so thank you all for the help! The search for a new blade continues... 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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