Understanding the four kanji following zodiac date.

[Ron STL]

I've been translating character by character mei and date on this special order gendaito. Circled on the attached, shows a 3-kanji statement following the zodiacal signs (Tsuchinoe, Tora) on this 1935 dated sword. The description on the Listing shows them as Kyou Setsygu. Of these three kanji I did find Kyu (old) but not the two following kanji. A translation of these would be appreciated, along with what this statement is saying.

 

Your help on this is always appreciated. 

 

Ron STL

[ROKUJURO]

Looks like a 1938 date if I am not mistaken.

[SteveM]

The three kanji (after 寅 - tora) are 旧節旬, which I'm sure is an allusion to a date on the old lunar calendar, but I don't know what date it would refer to. 

節句 (Sekku) would be one a few specific dates on the calendar, for example Tango no Sekku would be May 5th), but this writing says 節旬 (slight variation in the kanji). This word doesn't show up in any search. My guess is that it is a spelling error by the person who wrote it, and it should be 節句. But that assumption still doesn't tell me which date it is. 

[Ron STL]

I've attached clear photos showing the complete nakago plus a close-up of the zodiac signs and the confusing three kanji starting with Kyu. Signs: Tsuchinoe and Tora definitely are for 1938, as the Showa 13 date also shows. The character kyu written on origami looks the same 5-stroke form as carved on the nakago. Again, your comments are all interesting and perhaps a clear explanation of its meaning will be found. All part of our learning experience. 

 

As you may have recognized, this is the Toshihide originally listed on Danny Massey's site, nihontocraft.com. 

 

Ron STL

 

[Kiipu]

This reminds me of @ww2shingunto's Type 100 that was made by Akimitsu.  Fortunately, @BANGBANGSAN was able to convert it into a Gregorian date.

Akimitsu - Unusual Date Inscription

[Kiipu]

Some better pictures can be seen at Samurai Shokai.

https://www.samurais....jp/sword/22120.html

[BANGBANGSAN]

I'm with Steve,It should be 節句 instead of 節旬

昭和十三(1938)

戊寅(The year of the tiger)
旧(Old/Former-lunar calendar)
節句(Sekku)

吉日(Auspicious/Lucky day).

The 五節句(Five Sekku")refer to specific traditional Japanese celebrations: 人日(Jinjitsu)on January 7th, 上已(Jōshi)on March 3rd, 端午(Tango)on May 5th, 七夕(Tanabata)on July 7th, and 重陽(Chōyō)on September 9th.

1938年昭和13年の節句・五節句
節句    日付    旧暦
人日の節句(じんじつのせっく)    1月7日(金曜日)(大安)    1937年12月6日
上巳の節句(じょうしのせっく)    3月3日(木曜日)(先負)    1938年2月2日
端午の節句(たんごのせっく)    5月5日(木曜日)(先負)    1938年4月6日
七夕の節句(たなばたのせっく・しちせきのせっく)    7月7日(木曜日)(先負)    1938年6月10日
重陽の節句(ちょうようのせっく)    9月9日(金曜日)(仏滅)    1938年7月16日

 

Based on the traditional calendar, December 6th, 1937, appears favorable for construction, but it did not align precisely with the 戊寅年. February 2nd, 1938, seems inauspicious for various activities. It's advisable to avoid construction on April 6th and June 10th. July 16th, 1938, (重陽), is suitable for ceremonies, blessings, trading, and similar activities. However, there's no specific mention of its suitability for construction. Therefore, July 16th, 1938 (重陽), seems the most probable date for consideration.

[Kiipu]

I have been working on this as well and I am drawing a blank.  I understand the characters but not how they connect to a date.

Translation Requests, Post #2414

[BANGBANGSAN]

1 hour ago, Kiipu said:

I have been working on this as well and I am drawing a blank.  I understand the characters but not how they connect to a date.

Translation Requests, Post #2414

I think It should be 節句 instead of 節旬

[Kiipu]

The translation can be found via my link above.

[BANGBANGSAN]

12 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

I'm with Steve,It should be 節句 instead of 節旬

昭和十三(1938)

戊寅(The year of the tiger)
旧(Old/Former-lunar calendar)
節句(Sekku)

吉日(Auspicious/Lucky day).

The 五節句(Five Sekku")refer to specific traditional Japanese celebrations: 人日(Jinjitsu)on January 7th, 上已(Jōshi)on March 3rd, 端午(Tango)on May 5th, 七夕(Tanabata)on July 7th, and 重陽(Chōyō)on September 9th.

1938年昭和13年の節句・五節句
節句    日付    旧暦
人日の節句(じんじつのせっく)    1月7日(金曜日)(大安)    1937年12月6日
上巳の節句(じょうしのせっく)    3月3日(木曜日)(先負)    1938年2月2日
端午の節句(たんごのせっく)    5月5日(木曜日)(先負)    1938年4月6日
七夕の節句(たなばたのせっく・しちせきのせっく)    7月7日(木曜日)(先負)    1938年6月10日
重陽の節句(ちょうようのせっく)    9月9日(金曜日)(仏滅)    1938年7月16日

 

Based on the traditional calendar, December 6th, 1937, appears favorable for construction, but it did not align precisely with the 戊寅年. February 2nd, 1938, seems inauspicious for various activities. It's advisable to avoid construction on April 6th and June 10th. July 16th, 1938, (重陽), is suitable for ceremonies, blessings, trading, and similar activities. However, there's no specific mention of its suitability for construction. Therefore, July 16th, 1938 (重陽), seems the most probable date for consideration.

@Kiipu

Correction

In the Chinese lunar calendar, 9月9日（九月初九）重陽 in 1938 should be October 31st.

https://wannianrili....-10-31__wannianrili/

PS: 

人日  正月初七 1938年2月6日

上巳  三月初三  1938年4月3日

端午  五月初5五 1938年6月2日

七夕  七月初七  1938年8月2日

[Ron STL]

Thanks to Bangbansan explanation, I'd say this mystery is now understood. I also asked a Japanese friend about this and he wrote: 旧節句 (Kyu Sekku ) = Seasonal festival day by the old Lunar Calendar,

which further confirms these findings. Of course, I will keep all of this with my file on the Toshihide for the sword's future owners after me. There is no way I would have discovered all this information with your help. Thanks!

Ron STL