Cleaned (no rust/patina) Nakago vs Shinsa (NBTHK).

[2devnul]

Hello,

 

I found below offers and something bothers me. 

https://www.ebay.com...shqty=1&isGTR=1#shId

https://www.ebay.com...0:g:8N0AAOSwd~JlNlFr

 

Both swords have 'clean' Nakago and NBTHK papers. Please note that Nakago in papers is also 'clean'. 

Does this mean that this type of restored swords can successfully pass Shinsa? I though that Nakago (rust/patina) is pretty important and it will be a blocker for such swords to pass. 

 

Please advise, thank you!

[Geraint]

Dear Adam.

 

In both these cases I do not see cleaned nakago.  Lighting has a lot to do with revealing the true colour, the first Takada blade has a nakago in good condition but the rest of what you are seeing is a lighting issue I think.  Worth bearing in mind that we are looking at a blade which is stated to be Edo period and that could be quite recent.  The second is heavily suriage so what is now the nakago is, in most part what would have been polished blade surface, hence no yasurime and a very smooth appearance.

 

One  factor to consider in other cases is that a sword might pass shinsa and then have its nakago damaged but not in these two examples.

 

Hope that helps.

 

All the best.

[Brian]

Agree. Nothing there suggests a cleaned nakago

[Cola]

 

Are those kirikomi?

[2devnul]

14 minutes ago, Cola said:

Are those kirikomi?

Battle/fight marks? Possible, looks like it. Or ... the sword was bend. 

 

17 minutes ago, Brian said:

Agree. Nothing there suggests a cleaned nakago

Then why it is in such 'clean' shape? No patina at all. Is that common? I apologize if it is a silly question, but all 'old' swords I saw got patina on Nakago. 

These two look more like Shinsakuto alike Nakago. 

[ROKUJURO]

Cola,

these KIZU look like SHINAE to me. If you do a search for KIRIKOMI, you will immediately see the difference.

[2devnul]

16 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said:

Cola,

these KIZU look like SHINAE to me. If you do a search for KIRIKOMI, you will immediately see the difference.

So I can be right, mukade-shinae due to sword being bend?

[ROKUJURO]

26 minutes ago, 2devnul said:

So I can be right, mukade-shinae due to sword being bent?

No, not MUKADE SHINAE, just scattered ones.

[Geraint]

Dear Adam.

 

For useful information on flaws see here. http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/flaws.html

 

Mukade = centipede, hence many shinae close together.  

 

Given what I said above you are correct that cleaning a nakago is a bad idea.  Shinsakuto would start out with a pristine nakago and over time the patina rust will grow over the metal.  Given ubu nakago it is useful to note the colour of the patina, nakago sabi, but of course if the original nakago disappears due to o suriage then you are starting again.  

 

All of this is influenced by the way the sword has been cared for and  indeed handled.  I recall that one Masamune had what would be described as Shinto nakago sabi because it was handled so often whereas a sword that has been largely neglected may have quite serious rust damage in a very short time.

 

It is of course very hard to judge colour from monotone on line photographs, sellers don't usually bother with this particular feature very much.

 

All the best.

[2devnul]

@Geraint

Thank you very much!

 

So in other words, 'cleaned' Nakago will indeed be a blocker for Shinsa to give cert, correct? 

Here we are talking about swords which don't have (or pictures don't show) that patina in place. For Katana I can understand. It might have been shortened not so long ago. For Wakizashi, it is still a bit strange to me. I would expect to see more patina on it. 

 

Anyway, my question was about Shinsa vs 'cleaned' Nakago and I think I have the answer. 

Thank you all!

 

[2devnul]

3 hours ago, Brian said:

Agree. Nothing there suggests a cleaned nakago

But how ...

 

I'm sorry, but I must disagree. This bothers me a lot. It really looks like patina was removed. 

[David Flynn]

Cleaned tangs aren't necessarily that bad.   A signed sword with a clean tang will still get papers.   The biggest problem with a cleaned tang, comes with Mumei swords.