Who was ToyoSuke?

[Bruce Pennington]

15 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

but critics not. 

Ha!  Made me laugh, thanks John! 

 

Good work my friend.  We all appreciate your work!  You are now the resident NMB expert on Toyosuke!  Hope you find more.

[Jcstroud]

One more for the collection

[John C]

6 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

One more for the collection

JC:

I'm looking at assembly numbers and noticed Toyosuke uses black paint and generally two numbers. Are 58 the only numbers on the one above as far as you know?

John C.

[Jcstroud]

19 minutes ago, John C said:

JC:

I'm looking at assembly numbers and noticed Toyosuke uses black paint and generally two numbers. Are 58 the only numbers on the one above as far as you know?

John C.

As far as I know I have yet to see one in triple digits

[John C]

On 4/9/2023 at 5:44 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Thanks John.  That makes 7 I have on file now.

 

Painted numbers:

8

33

45

65

68

81

No paint

No paint

 

Bruce: Now there is a 58 for the list. All with black paint and some with black painted tick marks on the mune.

John C.

[Jcstroud]

Also there was a #36 in France that sold also wish I had that one. On naturabuy auction site.

[Bruce Pennington]

Reference links, guys? or the photos.

[Jcstroud]

Interesting note #65 the nakabo is not suriage . Like the others ! 

10 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Reference links, guys? or the photos.

Working on  it Bruce the pics were previously posted I will have to backtrack to find the links .I certainly do not wish to be a source of frustration.  My apologies. I am still figuring all this out.

[Jcstroud]

2 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

Interesting note #65 the nakabo is not suriage . Like the others ! 

Working on  it Bruce the pics were previously posted I will have to backtrack to find the links .I certainly do not wish to be a source of frustration.  My apologies. I am still figuring all this out.

These photos are ones that you posted on january 18 ,2022  titled ???-Suke,help!  This one in particular was not kiri or flat cut.

[Jcstroud]

https://imgur.com/a/o5BLSt4

 

above. You will find the url link to all the photos of the Toyosuke sword that were provided by 

@Karu  the previous owner !  Special thanks to him for his contribution to this study!!!Very. Cool.

[Jcstroud]

Borrowed this picture from war relics post Toyosuke # 87 also a souvenir sword by appearance

[Krystian]

Here are few photos of sword signed "Toyosuke" I just received. 

[vajo]

Comparing all that Toyo Suke mei i think it was an company not a single smith. Maybe one of these companies which produce before the war tires and fabrics, during the war war supplies and after the war they made new start in the old buissiness like Toyobo (Toyo Boseki Kwaisha), Toyo, Toyo Rubber, Toyo Chemicals and other.

 

東洋 Toyo  means Orient or Asia. 

So it could be a trademark too.

 

[Jcstroud]

Wow what a nice find!

This would be the first wartime Toyosuke Kaigunto I have seen in full dress ,second I have seen with an uncut  nakago,same diamond crosshatch ,same 4mm fishhook barbed anchor stamp ! The overall consistency of construction is far better than most imho.

As far as who was Toyosuke well...it has been a mystery for many years now. Question: have you noticed any special marks or writing on the tsuka or anything that might help in determining point of origin? My thoughts are probably from Inaba shrine near Gifu castle but looking for more evidence. Thankyou for sharing and helping with the study!      John

[Jcstroud]

4 hours ago, Krystian said:

Here are few photos of sword signed "Toyosuke" I just received. 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

3 hours ago, vajo said:

Comparing all that Toyo Suke mei i think it was an company not a single smith. Maybe one of these companies which produce before the war tires and fabrics, during the war war supplies and after the war they made new start in the old buissiness like Toyobo (Toyo Boseki Kwaisha), Toyo, Toyo Rubber, Toyo Chemicals and other.

 

東洋 Toyo  means Orient or Asia. 

So it could be a trademark too.

 

Quite an interesting thought, Chris!

 

Kristian's kaigunto, number 78, poses a problem, as does the number 33 Toyosuke in Type 98 fittings.  I'm compiling a chart on all the souvenir blades.  Will update when finished.

[John C]

I've recorded the assembly numbers. 

That one really is an enigma. Kai gunto saya and tassel with what appears to be a "souvenir" style seppa and matching assembly number.

 

John C.

[vajo]

I would not jump in that it is original in that configuration John. I had a couple showa-to Kai Gunto and most of them had the same patination and signs of wear on saya and tsuka. The kabutogane and fuchi looks different in gilding to the saya for me. But never say never. I personal have some doubts.

[Krystian]

Tsuba was not originally from that sword. According to the information from the owner of this sword (I have it on consignment), he bought the sword with tsuka and saya. Tsuba was purchased separately.  

 

Fittings on tsuka and saya are different. Fittings on saya are made of brass and hand carved, I could even say they few of the sakura flowers are beautifully made. Fittings on tsuka are low quality gilded casts.

 

Please let me know If you would like to see more photos. 

[vajo]

Thanks Christian,

the tsuka looks like that from a souvenier sword. So that would fit with the blade. The saya looks like from a wartime kai gunto. Nice that it is not damaged. The gilding is rubbed like the most ones. I like the shark "same" on the saya. 

It is a nice display piece. Assambled but it looks good. Kai Gunto in good condition with a gendai blade from a good smith are rare. So this is a good addition for someone who wants a Kai Gunto for a smaller budget.

[Jcstroud]

Quote : Comparing all that Toyo Suke mei i think it was an company not a single smith. Maybe one of these companies which produce before the war tires and fabrics, during the war war supplies and after the war they made new start in the old buissiness like Toyobo (Toyo Boseki Kwaisha), Toyo, Toyo Rubber, Toyo Chemicals and other

 

After careful consideration of the recently discovered US army declassified documents saying there was a contract to buy 8000 samarai swords from Tenshozan tanrenjo combined with the well known Hattori sword network  gathering surplus swords directly after the end of the war. In my humble opinion Toyosuke was not a company but a very good swordsmith whose work was extremely consistent. And dangerously sharp even after all these years without a polish. No one knows if he suvived the bombing of Toyokawa or not. For this reason he deserves to be remembered respectfully everyone wants that.

[vajo]

John if that "Toyosuke" would be a real swordsmith with that inflated production of blades he would be written somewhere. But he is not. 

It is more obvious that the blades where produced by other smith, collected, stamped and signed from employees with the signature for the company.

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Have to agree with Chris, this was the predominant model of Showato manufacture and the only viable method for large scale production.

[Jcstroud]

3 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Have to agree with Chris, this was the predominant model of Showato manufacture and the only viable method for large scale production.

I being a mechanic,technician for many years recognise things such as filemark patterns and inscriptions . In respect to these,blade shape it tends to indicate the work of an individual due to the conformity of construction . Diamond crosshatching is not the predominant pattern during this period. But admit it we really dont know until the facts come in. maybe one day ........

[Jcstroud]

4 hours ago, vajo said:

John if that "Toyosuke" would be a real swordsmith with that inflated production of blades he would be written somewhere. But he is not. 

It is more obvious that the blades where produced by other smith, collected, stamped and signed from employees with the signature for the company.

 

Question:  in your personal experience how many of these Toyosuke blades have you seen?  we may have by now perhaps records of 10 of them. In respect to the "Souvenir Swords" many more.In trying to guage the level of production more input is needed.I do realise there are several possibilities in repect to this "Swordsmith"  My intent is to simply ask help to find the truth if at all possible. All help is truly appreciated. Thank you.

[vajo]

John one question. That Toyo Suke question was discussed by a topic from you in 2016 here.

these are the toyo suke swords so long that are discussed here in the board. Maybe that helps a little.

 

 

[Jcstroud]

39 minutes ago, vajo said:

John one question. That Toyo Suke question was discussed by a topic from you in 2016 here.

these are the toyo suke swords so long that are discussed here in the board. Maybe that helps a little.

 

 

Yes I posted it years ago and until now has been an oddity of sorts due to the mixed army navy fittings and other unorthodox characteristics and have been since then trying to find out who was this person. If indeed he was a person. The strange thing is it is still a mystery as in the begining but we all have learned a great deal since but were not givin up the faith.

[Jcstroud]

So I take it you are saying Tenshozan Tanrenjo used the name Toyosuke  to avoid embarassment because they were selling swords of quality to the enemy only two months after the wars end.? Why sign it at all? Granted the mei are nearly identical but they are not.why were some cut off and some not? No question that all but one were cut by the same hand I would bet. It is not my intention to bring shame on anyone,on the contrary to bring honor to an unknown swordsmith whose work was extraordinary .If you disagree then so be it.

[Bruce Pennington]

I am enjoying the discussion guys! This is where the real work is done. Chasing leads, offering counter ideas – we’re in the middle of it.

 

Forgive my entry into this discussion, because I have no expertise in mei, but the nihonto guys quibble over a single stroke difference in a mei, because it determines, to them, whether it is gimei.  With that in mind, wouldn’t a uniformly accurate mei, in that frame of mind, mean, this is a genuine swordsmith’s signature?

[PNSSHOGUN]

Not really, as these factories would have someone just doing the Mei at the end.