Help on finalizing three tsuba descriptions

[Ron STL]

Been trying hard to complete a translation of three tsuba recently put through shinsa. The attached three photos show the tsuba and what I am unable to translate. Help please. Puzzling why I could not find these sometimes simple kanji. 

Tsuba 1 Right column top unidentified kanji.

Tsuba 2 Right column top, left column top.

Tsuba 3 Right column top; left column bottom. 

RonSTl

[Bugyotsuji]

Where to start? Two birds with one stone, perhaps?

四方 shiho indicates in four directions.

牡丹 Botan is peony (usually flowers)

雁金 karigane is a strange convention to express wild geese.

[Bugyotsuji]

The top one says 紋散図　Mon san zu, which is Mon scattered design

Where you have written tsume + ji, should be 槌目 tsuchime (no ji till further down)

焼き手地　is a kind of (unusual?) ground called yakite, I guess, so 'yakite-ji' (?)

 

Oh and 変り形 is kawari-gata (unusual shape)

[Nobody]

5 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

The top one says 紋散図　Mon san zu, which is Mon scattered design

....................................

 

 

紋散 usually reads Mon chirashi (same meaning).

[Bugyotsuji]

So where's Ron?

[Ron STL]

Strange, I thought I replied to all this translation help yesterday, but it didn't go out. Yes, this information was very helpful and beyond my translation abilities. I was confused by the term "Mon chirashi zu tsuba" but now realize it is as it looks, a scattered, random pattern applied by what I heard is a "drip zogan" method, which is how it looks. Replying to Piers D, I'm in St. Louis, Missouri USA. Been into swords and fittings for sixty years and still learning something new, like here. 

Ron STL 

[Ron STL]

I see what happened yesterday. I apparently created another "thread," not sure how. Thanks Morikame for pointing this out. Ron STL

[Van]

On 2/3/2023 at 10:47 AM, Bugyotsuji said:

雁金 karigane is a strange convention to express wild geese.

May I ask why 雁金 is strange?

[uwe]

I think Piers refers to the use of “金” in this context.

[Bugyotsuji]

雁音・雁・雁金（読み）かりがね These can all be read Karigane, and there's a story behind each.

 

Originally it meant "the sound of the crying geese" 雁+が+音. Adding Kane/gane 金 instead of ga+ne was thought to be bright and shiny and auspicious, so it was used when speaking about the Karigane Mon, family crest. Then everyone started using 雁金, and even if you write the first two strokes, i.e. 厂 ....people will know by context what it is alluding to. The easiest thing is just to learn the word karigane as geese (but golden)! 

[Van]

I know these stories, thank you. So by "strange" you mean "added at a later age"?

5 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

雁音・雁・雁金（読み）かりがね These can all be read Karigane, and there's a story behind each.

 

Originally it meant "the sound of the crying geese" 雁+が+音. Adding Kane/gane 金 instead of ga+ne was thought to be bright and shiny and auspicious, so it was used when speaking about the Karigane Mon, family crest. Then everyone started using 雁金, and even if you write the first two strokes, i.e. 厂 ....people will know by context what it is alluding to. The easiest thing is just to learn the word karigane as geese (but golden)! 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Hi Vadim, when I said "雁金 karigane is a strange convention to express wild geese", I guess I meant that the two kanji 雁金 are a convention (do you not think *'goose/geese gold' looks strange?) which are used to express the idea of a) wild geese, b) wild geese designs, c) a stylized Kamon?

I think it is a strange jump from 雁が音 to 雁金, jumping from the sound of their cries (lovely poetic image) to 金 with no relation to the feathered creature itself.

 

Actually in English there is the story of the goose that lays the golden egg, so maybe there is some connection with gold! 

 

Perhaps I should have said: "雁金 karigane is a strange (to me) kanji convention which is used to express wild geese."

[Van]

Thank you for clarification.