How much should I spend?

[Bridges]

Hey John, got any recommendations on reputable sellers?

[Grimmdarkspire]

On 1/15/2023 at 5:09 PM, PNSSHOGUN said:

The example in Kyu Gunto mountings on Page 68 of Swords of Imperial Japan  1868 - 1945.

 

I wanted to add a quick observation. This evening I picked up another piece closely related to this one, though with some notable differences. The overall construction is far more robust than what you typically see in standard Japanese production of the period. In hand, the quality, balance, and weight align much more closely with my contemporary German examples than with usual Japanese arsenal work.

 

What makes it especially interesting is that it’s arsenal marked on both the blade and the scabbard and, oddly enough, even the scabbard boot carries a Kokura First Arsenal mark. That level of marking consistency isn’t something you encounter every day. The scabbard itself is serialed 128612, while the ricasso is marked 83060.

 

Notably, it bears a strong resemblance to the example shown in Kyū Guntō mountings on page 68 of Swords of Imperial Japan 1868–1945. That comparison was one of the first things that raised my eyebrow.

 

I also believe the scabbard incorporates a German or Austrian-style internal locking pressure spring to retain the blade. That mechanism is far more commonly encountered in Prussian, German, and Austrian European swords than in standard Japanese patterns, and its presence here is difficult to ignore.

 

Another point worth noting is that everything is exceptionally tight. There are no wiggles, wobbles, or clinks of any kind. The fit and finish feel unmistakably European in character, very much in line with my Prussian, German, and Austrian pieces.

 

My working theory is that this may be a German-contracted or German-influenced piece produced for Japanese use. The design language, metallurgy, and overall feel simply don’t read as standard domestic Japanese manufacture.

 

I’m very open to additional insights. If anyone has documentation, comparable examples, or a different interpretation, I’d genuinely welcome the discussion. Pieces like this tend to tell their story slowly, and I enjoy letting the evidence do the talking.

[Grimmdarkspire]

Here are more pictures.

Additionally, in handling, the piece feels heavy, but very well balanced. It is noticeably heavier than any other Kyū Guntō I own or have handled, with a distinctly overbuilt quality rather than crude weight. The mass feels deliberate and structural, again far more in line with European military swords of the same period than with typical Japanese examples.
 

[Conway S]

The scabbard is definitely from a Type 32. Can you show a better picture of the backstrap? Maybe the blade could be from a Type 32 as well?

[Scogg]

Really interesting.
 

I believe Conway is onto something. The blade appears to be the precise length of the Type 32 Otsu (rather than the Koh). Both serial numbers align with the with Type 32 Otsu range as well. Maybe some close measurements would confirm or deny. 

Stamp on the drag may be:  ホ = HO = 小倉陸軍造兵廠第一製造所 = 1st Factory of Kokura Army Arsenal
 

Nick Komiya’s thread and photo on warrelics:

https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/how-type-32-sword-born-791000/

[Scogg]

About to fly out to Vegas for the sword show, but before I leave I flipped through my copy of Swords of imperial Japan 1868-1945 Cyclopedia Edition by Jim Dawson.

 

The back strap of your sword is reminiscent but not identical to the “Sea plant and waves custom sword” on page 244 and 245. 

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

A photo for those without the book:

[Scogg]

Thanks Bruce. In the text Dawson mentions a different example pictured in his 1996 edition.
 

I wonder if anyone has that version, and would be willing to share a photo? 

 

Best of luck Seth, 

-Sam 

[Grimmdarkspire]

1 hour ago, Bruce Pennington said:

A photo for those without the book:

I may be going out on a limb here, but it appears plausible that this is a custom or semi-custom piece originating from the Kokura plant, combining features seen in both the page 68 variant and the page 244 variant.

 

Thank you all for the insights and for pointing me back to Dawson’s book. I went back and flipped through the pages and must have missed the specific backstrap reference earlier, so I appreciate it being highlighted.

 

The nakago appears to run nearly the full length of the handle at roughly six inches. The blade’s cutting length measures approximately thirty to thirty one and one third inches overall. I have a couple of additional photos that may offer further clarity as well.

 

It also appears that the upper scabbard throat bears a Kokura First Arsenal stamp, matching the stamp on the blade’s ricasso. It is difficult to capture clearly in photos, but there are indications that an arched or circular symbol once existed on the ricasso and was later ground away, based on the remaining indentations and grinding marks. Notably, both the ground-away symbol and the arsenal stamp are on the opposite side of the ricasso from the serialized area, which suggests a deliberate alteration rather than incidental wear.

 

Additionally, the scabbard throat seems to incorporate a European-style foil pressure locking system. This mechanism holds the blade securely in place, with no wiggle, rattle, or play, though it is admittedly hard to photograph in detail.

 

For now, these are the best photos I can offer. I can share additional images later if requested.

[BANGBANGSAN]

This one appears to be a Type 32 with a replaced Kyu Gunto hilt.