Okimono Construction Material Identification Sought

[hddennis]

Just picked up two netsukes and an okimono. The netsukes are definitely carved ivory. The Okimono has me stumped. It has some weight, makes a clacking noise when stuck and appears to be hand carved. It looked like it could possibly be resin but a red hot pin has zero effect on it leaving no mark at all but curling the pin tip back on itself. Is there a modern material that would do this but look like ivory? I positive it isn't cast as there would be no way to get it out of the mold. Any help greatly appreciated.

 

Howard Dennis

 

[waljamada]

From my limited knowledge via scrimshaw from a research dive I did after buying a piece I wanted to authenticate, there did not appear to be a resin material that the "heat" test wouldn't reveal.  So it most likely is bone/ivory.  That monkey piece is a real neat one.

[PietroParis]

It does not look like ivory, especially the bottom view. Moreover, as you were told in the FB group, it is a model that is quite commonly faked, see e.g. this recent sale:

 

https://www.ebay.fr/itm/115468859653

 

My own guess would still be some kind of plastic.

 

Just out of curiosity, would you care to show the netsuke?

[hddennis]

Your example is the same subject matter as mine but has a lot less detail and the bottom is typical resin with no finish just cut off. I'm beginning to think mine might be some type of horn. Can you find me any examples of resin or plastics  that resist red hot pins?  I'll have to get the netsukes out and photograph them.

 

Howard Dennis

[PietroParis]

You are of course correct in pointing out that, differently from the eBay example, your okimono shows detail also on the bottom. However, there is still at least one flat, messy area that looks suspicious to me:

 

 

For the rest, I don't know what kind of plastics would resist the hot pin, but let me stress the obvious fact that the hot pin test works only in one direction: if it melts, it is not ivory. If it does not melt, it could be ivory as well as any other material that does not melt. I recall a discussion in the FB group of a museum replica (the cat in robe from the Peabody Museum) that had fooled its buyer because it had passed the hot pin test.

 

 

 

[hddennis]

16 hours ago, PietroParis said:

It does not look like ivory, especially the bottom view. Moreover, as you were told in the FB group, it is a model that is quite commonly faked, see e.g. this recent sale:

 

https://www.ebay.fr/itm/115468859653

 

My own guess would still be some kind of plastic.

 

Just out of curiosity, would you care to show the netsuke?

As requested here are the netsukes I obtained. I realize they are not old great works but they are hand carved ivory and as such will be added to my collection. Translation assistance greatly appreciated.

Howard Dennis

[PietroParis]

Thank you, you are correct that they are not great old works. The one on the right might be Japanese, the one on the left most likely not, but they both are relatively recent products aimed at the tourist/export market. No problem with that, as long as you know what they are, like them, and did not pay a fortune for them.

 

P.S. leaving aside the ethical (and legal) implications of buying/selling recent ivory, of course. That is a matter on which sensitivities vary, but many netsuke collectors feel strongly about it because it kind of ruins the game also for harmless antique ivory.

 

P.P.S. On this kind of carvings the signature does not matter, since it will not point to a recorded artist anyway.

[hddennis]

42 minutes ago, PietroParis said:

Thank you, you are correct that they are not great old works. The one on the right might be Japanese, the one on the left most likely not, but they both are relatively recent products aimed at the tourist/export market. No problem with that, as long as you know what they are, like them, and did not pay a fortune for them.

 

P.S. leaving aside the ethical (and legal) implications of buying/selling recent ivory, of course. That is a matter on which sensitivities vary, but many netsuke collectors feel strongly about it because it kind of ruins the game also for harmless antique ivory.

 

P.P.S. On this kind of carvings the signature does not matter, since it will not point to a recorded artist anyway.

I won't get into the politics of ivory it gets kind of silly when the countries claiming to want to stop poaching continue to burn tons of ivory that could go to feed the trade lowering demand and whose profits could fund the efforts to stop poaching. The signatures matter to me because it's a language I can't read, and even though they are not famous or listed  it is a sign that the carver was proud enough of his work he chose to put his name on the piece just as did carvers decades and centuries ago.

 

I wanted to prove your statement about the hot pin story and took a MMA mouse replica given to me by a friend and tried a hot needle test on it. The first attempt seemed to resist the needle as you stated. I tried it the second time with a brand new needle making sure it was as hot as I could get it. The needle stuck into the mouse only very slightly but did raise a mark where the point had entered  the material.

 

Howard Dennis

[PietroParis]

3 hours ago, hddennis said:

The signatures matter to me because it's a language I can't read, and even though they are not famous or listed  it is a sign that the carver was proud enough of his work he chose to put his name on the piece just as did carvers decades and centuries ago.

 

Not necessarily. On this kind of tourist/export carvings a random signature can be added just to enhance the perceived value of the item, with no connection to the identity of the carver. Indeed, most such carvings carry simple signatures from a limited set, e.g. famous signatures from the past such as 正直 Masanao or 正之 Masayuki. Other much-recurring signatures are 石川 Ishigawa and 玉石 Gyokuseki, the latter probably intended as a pun because it can be read as "dodgy". Your pictures are not clear enough to read the signatures, but it seems to me that the one on the left belongs in the broad class mentioned above, while the one on the right (cursive, upside down) is harder to read and might or might not mean anything at all in Japanese.

[PietroParis]

P.S. Alas, rotating and magnifying the left signature it does indeed look like 玉石 Gyokuseki, a notorious red flag for mass-produced export/tourist carvings made in China or Hong Kong. TBH, the quality of the carving itself suggested as much independently of the signature.

 

 

[hddennis]

20 minutes ago, PietroParis said:

P.S. Alas, rotating and magnifying the left signature it does indeed look like 玉石 Gyokuseki, a notorious red flag for mass-produced export/tourist carvings made in China or Hong Kong. TBH, the quality of the carving itself suggested as much independently of the signature.

 

 

Thanks, no idea on the righthand  signature?

Howard Dennis

[PietroParis]

With some guesswork, I think that the right signature might read 光玉 Kogyoku, another rather generic, "easy" name (although not as egregious as Gyokuseki):

 

[ROKUJURO]

Dennis,

the material used for recent OKIMONO and NETSUKE (no plural form in Japanese language) is often a chemical resin with mixed-in stone (marble) or bone/antler powder. This material will not clearly behave like ivory, but it may look quite close in some cases. In the end, the workmanship reveals all, especially the bottom. 

 

Casting these complicated shapes is always possible with today's techniques, even with undercuts.

[hddennis]

3 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

Dennis,

the material used for recent OKIMONO and NETSUKE (no plural form in Japanese language) is often a chemical resin with mixed in stone (marble) or bone/antler powder. This material will not clearly behave like ivory, but the workmanship reveals all. 

 

Thanks that clears up a lot. That's the information I was looking for.

 

Howard Dennis

[Fuuten]

Regardless of the material it turns out to be, that stack of monkeys is quite something! 👏 Thank you for sharing.

[Geraint]

I will admit to not having tried the hot needle test but there are two broad classes of plastic, thermoplastic and thermoset plastic.  The former softens with heat and would fail the needle test, the later, once formed will not soften with heat and hence would pass it.  Once you add inert fillers as suggested then we are left with the limited benefit that if it fails the needle test then it's not one type of plastic.

 

All the best.

[Fuuten]

For what it's worth, see if it floats or sinks. My guess would be bone or born as ivory has that characteristic pattern that should be fairly clear.

[hddennis]

5 hours ago, Fuuten said:

For what it's worth, see if it floats or sinks. My guess would be bone or born as ivory has that characteristic pattern that should be fairly clear.

Sank like a stone, so I tried one of my known Ivory pieces and it did the same thing??

 

Howard Dennis

[ROKUJURO]

Most of these synthetic materials - especially with mineral fillers - have a density above 1,0. Bone is about 1,5, elephant ivory slightly above.

[PietroParis]

On 8/18/2022 at 4:33 AM, hddennis said:

Sank like a stone, so I tried one of my known Ivory pieces and it did the same thing??

 

This is a kind of test that a netsuke collector would definitely not recommend. The dirt in the crevices is part of the “life” of the object, and you could even damage the inking. In Nihonto terms, it’s a bit like messing with the inside of the sukashi in a tsuba.

[hddennis]

I've got to be honest if the amount of dust that might drift off  in a bowl of water  for 10 seconds is damaging my netsukes maybe I shouldn't even be handling them, just dip them in clear epoxy to preserve them exactly as they are  at this very moment never changing to the end of time!

 

Howard Dennis