Tsuba casting molds ?

[OceanoNox]

8 hours ago, 1kinko said:

There’s a reason you don’t find horimono on the hamon.

Maybe because it would damage the edge and weaken the sword (regardless of possibility).

[OceanoNox]

This is getting outside the scope of this topic, but from the papers I have read, the max. carbon content in Japanese swords is about 0.8 mass% (but could start around 1 mass%) and more likely close to 0.6 mass%. The hamon itself is martensite, the border martensite/pearlite, and the slowly cooled rest of the blade is a mixture of pearlite and ferrite, with more or less pearlite depending on the area.

References:

Inoue, Materials Science Research International, 3 (1997) 193-203

Sasaki et al., Tetsu-to-Hagane, 86 (2000) 45-50

Sasaki and Momono, Tetsu-to-Hagane, 93 (2007) 78-84

 

On a more personal note, I have been able to conduct destructive testing of a Japanese sword (age unknown, destined to destruction anyway) and the carbon content was 0.55 mass% at the edge and 0.06 mass% at the mune.

[ROKUJURO]

5 hours ago, 1kinko said:

Some HAMON go pretty far from the edge but are still high carbon steel. The actual hamon line is composed of martensite with a carbon content of around 2.5%- similar to some cast irons.

Darrel,
 

It is impossible to have a carbon content of the martensite in the YAKIBA that exceeds the max. carbon content of the basic steel (TAMAHAGANE) which is roughly 1% or sometimes slightly above.

From sciencedirect.com:

Stephen A. Rackley, in Carbon Capture and Storage, 2010

 

Martensite
Martensite is a metastable crystallization phase of iron formed by the rapid cooling, or quenching, of austenite (q.v.). Rapid cooling prevents carbon atoms from diffusing out of the iron crystal lattice, resulting in a body-centered tetragonal structure. Martensitic steels contain 12–18% chromium, up to 1% carbon, making the steel hard but brittle, and may also include small quantities (0.2–2%) of nickel, molybdenum, vanadium, or tungsten.....

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

So, here are pages 53 and 54 (with “plate XVI attached) from the “Transactions and proceedings of the Japan Society, ... v.13 (1914-15)”  from the section "Metals and Metal Working in Old Japan" that were mentioned in my previous post, and I finally figured out how to download it (man, that took a while to learn how to do it!).

 

I think this is very interesting information on cast iron and how it was further prepared for adding decorations.

 

( 53 )

Two standard lanterns (toro) at Nikkō are the only large

art objects of cast-iron known to me. They were presented to

the shrine in 1641 by Date Masamune, lord of Sendai.

The metal has been chiefly employed by the art craftsman

in small castings, such as kettles and other vessels for heating

water or wine, and many of these are masterpieces of modelling

and decoration. They are cast by the method of cera perduta, a

process which will be described when dealing with the casting of

bronze. When these castings are taken from the moulds in

which they have been cast, although they may be perfect so far

as the ornamental designs, which had been modelled in wax, are

concerned, yet they are quite unfit for further decoration by

either chasing, inlaying, or similar processes. Their surfaces

are hard and brittle ; they are hence subjected to the following

softening and decarburizing process:

The furnace used in the process consists of a cast-iron pan,

from which the bottom has been broken away, with a lining

of refractory clay. This is placed on a fireclay slab, which is

perforated with numerous holes. The whole is set upon three

or four bricks on the floor of the workshop. The cast-iron

object is placed inside the furnace so that it rests directly on

the perforated slab, and the space between it and the sides is

filled with charcoal in carefully broken lumps. The charcoal

is ignited and allowed to burn for an hour or more ; and when

nearly all is consumed the object is reversed, and the operation

repeated. The surface of the casting is then found to be soft

and malleable, the finest lines and channels can be chiselled

in it with unbroken edges, and any mode of surface decoration

can be conducted without difficulty.

After the object has been decorated, the fine brown oxidized

surface to which these castings owe so much of their beauty,

and by which the effect of their ornamental designs is so much

heightened, has yet to be produced. For costly objects, the

whole surface is carefully gone over with a pointed punch to

( 54 )

give it the irregularly rough texture which is so much esteemed

by the Japanese. The casting is then heated over a small

charcoal fire, and as soon as a portion of it has reached the

proper temperature it is rubbed with a liquid consisting of

plum vinegar containing iron in solution and ferric oxide in

suspension. Another part is similarly heated and rubbed until

the entire surface has been treated, and the desired amount of

rusting has been produced. After being well rubbed with a

dry cloth, it is covered with a thin coat of lacquer and heated

cautiously over a brazier, a fine spray of water being splashed

on it with a brush during the operation.

A typical specimen of one of these cast-iron kettles, with

a punched surface and gold and silver inlays and azziminia

work, is shown in Plate XVI.

 

Onward!

With respect,

Dan

[ROKUJURO]

I would like to suggest to open up a new thread about casting iron TETSUBIN and KAMA. Perhaps in a casting forum?

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

So, Jean in his last post stated “I would like to suggest to open up a new thread about casting iron TETSUBIN and KAMA. Perhaps in a casting forum?”

 

Now, that post seems to be in response to a post above his dealing with the very interesting subject of cast iron kettles and how the designs were applied during casting and after casting.

 

Although starting a new thread on kettle casting (tetsubin) may be of interest, I think that it would detract from their importance on this cast iron tusba discussion.  I feel that how the cast-iron kettles were made and decorated is extremely relevant (and gives valuable insights) into the production of cast iron tsuba in the Edo period.

 

I include a quote from a part of Glen's post (posted on Nov 11, 2022)-

 

“The most important points coming from Sesko and Haynes, who are both two of the leading Western tsuba scholars.

Both of them independently researched and published statements that cast iron tsuba were being produced by kettle makers during the Edo period.

And, in Sesko's example, he referred to a documented case of a tsubako who had apprenticed under a kettle maker who also made tsuba.

So, the idea that cast iron kettle makers were also producing cast iron tsuba in the Edo period is a statement of fact corroborated by two tsuba scholars.”

 

So, again, I feel that how cast-iron kettles were made and decorated is extremely relevant (and gives valuable insights) into the production of cast iron tsuba in the Edo period.

 

Anyway, just my opinion on the subject!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Spartancrest]

  http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/tsuba.htm   CAST TSUBA COPIES, REPRODUCTION AND FAKE TSUBA

During the late Edo, Meiji and Showa periods there were many cast copies of early tsuba made for the export market. These should not be confused with earlier originals. Cast copies will generally have casting flanges on the inner edges of the hitsu-ana and/or sukashi regions and bubble pits visible on the flat surfaces. There are antique cast iron (kettle caster) tsuba, although it is debated if such ever existed, and antique cast copper/bronze (kagamishi) tsuba; however good, authentic examples are rare.

There are also numerous modern made fake tsuba and copies of old tsuba on the market today, many coming from China / Hong Kong / Shanghai and sold on various online auctions. The collector must be aware of these modern copies and fakes. Do not confuse them with the real Japanese tsuba. 

 

I would draw your attention to the first four words.

 

As for kettle makers making tsuba - we certainly have kettle tsuba don't we. 

 

 

Not to be confused by this crap - as the man says above.

 

 

See the post for Posted December 15, 2018

 

[GRC]

Brian,

I completely agree with you that it makes no sense to make an individual tatara to produce a singular cast iron product, unless it was a very special item with a very large price tag for the effort.

My point is that cast iron foundries were on a much larger scale than that during the Edo period, and they were clearly producing items in quantity.

 

Here's an image from the archives of the Okamoto corporation that has been making cast iron products in Japan for 460 years. It's Edo period, but the exact date of the image is unknown:

 

 

 

More quotes from Isogawa, specifically referring to the evolution of foundries in time period preceding the Edo period:

 

"in the Eastern Japan, pot C was the main form of boiling throughout the Middle Ages, and in the Western Japan, Buddhist utensils made of bronze were sometimes made of cast iron, such as iron Buddhas and iron bowls."

 

I'd like to point out that bowls, Buddhas and "Buddhist utensils" are not kettles... and I would suggest that it alludes to at least some smaller objects for a more utilitarian household usage, or with some decorative motifs to serve as "Buddhist utensils" (what those are specifically is not clear unfortunately). And again, this goes back to pre-Edo times. So, it seems there's a much longer history to the production of smaller or more common objects.

 

continuing from Isogawa:

 

"These cast iron castings were produced by workers who were called "foundrymen" in the Middle Ages. From the results of the survey of the casting ruins, it can be assumed that many of them adopted the production form of copper and iron side by side. 

In ancient times, production workshops parasitized ironworks, but in the Middle Ages they were often located around casting sand production areas. In the late Middle Ages, some were located on the periphery of cities."

 

So, casting foundries were first set up next to the ironworks that were producing steel and cast iron in "ancient times", but were moved away from the sources of "sand iron" in order to be closer to the necessary "casting sand" for making molds. Then lastly, moved to the outskirts of cities.

I would assume the only logical explanation for the move would be to get closer to the growing consumer demand from the people living in cities.

 

So it seems obvious that the only way casting foundries could be moved away from the source of the cast iron itself (sand iron), was if they were being supplied with cast iron ingots from the steel production sites. There's no way they were moving unprocessed sand iron to the foundry locations. The cast iron would have to have been sent in an already prepared, ingot form for it to make economic sense.

 

[ROKUJURO]

14 hours ago, 1kinko said:

.....Some other studies have suggested that the charcoal/clay used to produce the hamon pattern could contribute to the C concentration.....

....The definitions of cast iron and steel need to be refined and, I guess, invasive methods will be needed.

Darrel,

I am afraid I was not completely clear concerning the carbon content of TAMAHAGANE. The refined steel (made from TAMAHAGANE) used in sword-making has a max. content of about 1% C.

The raw TAMAHAGANE coming directly from the TATARA can vary widely in its carbon content. Besides usable steel and low-carbon iron, a part of the production is cast iron which cannot be used by the swordsmith. 

Cast iron happens to occur near the vent tubes where the temperature in the TATARA is highest. In these places, the iron becomes almost liquified and takes up the carbon.

This cast iron is not useless, but it has to be re-processed in OROSHIGANE furnaces. It is a good material source to introduce carbon into softer iron scrap (often pre-industrial iron like nails or anchor chains) and so 'upgrade' the iron to become good steel.

It has been published (don't have a source at hand, I read it somewhere) that modern TATARA are run at a slightly higher temperature than in earlier times, thus producing more high carbon steel and cast iron. Nevertheless, we know from analyses that even the CELTS (more than 2.000 years ago) often had cast iron accidentally in their bloomery furnaces which they discarded as it was of no use for them. 

Later generations of iron-makers sifted through these waste piles of the CELTS and re-used this material. 

Nothing gets lost in the iron trade!

Concerning the possibility of an augmented carbon content in sword-blades by the TSUCHI-OKI (clay-cladding of the blades prior to YAKIIRE), I doubt very much that the small percentage of carbon would make a perceptible difference. Instead the carbon is mixed in the clay in an attempt to reduce the decarbonization in the hardening process.

It should be noted that not all swordsmiths use this carbon addition in their clay. 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

So, I was on the internet looking to purchase a Japanese cast iron kettle.  I thought it may be neat to add it to my collection along with the Japanese sand-cast cast iron bottle opener I have (and maybe some possible Edo period cast iron tsuba that I have “hanging around” on the walls!).  But the one I wanted was $383.00 U.S. dollars, so too much for me!

 

Anyway, I found some good information on one of the “cast iron kettle” sites.  I thought it would be interesting to add to the thread:

 

“The origins of Yamagata cast iron go back to the Heian period (794-1185), when a warlord came to the Yamagata region in a military campaign, and metal casters in his army found that the sand in the Mamigasaki River as well as the soil quality of the surrounding area was ideal for making casting molds. Some of the men settled in the region and became the founders of Yamagata cast iron.

 

In the late Edo period (1603-1868), the cast iron industry in the area developed greatly when the town was reorganized and a new adjacent town called Do-machi was established as a home for casting artisans. At the time, artisans mainly produced everyday items and Buddhist statues, but many pilgrims visiting Dewa Sanzan (the Three Sacred Mountains of Dewa) bought the items as souvenirs, which led to Yamagata cast iron becoming known all over Japan.”

 

From the below website-

https://en.jtakumi.com/categorysub.php?catsno=5040

 

The adventure continues!

 

With respect,

Dan

 

 

 

[ROKUJURO]

2 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

.....Anyway, I found some good information on one of the “tea kettle” sites. ....

Dan, 

perhaps look for water kettles. You cannot make tea in an iron kettle.  

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all-

 

Upon doing further research about cast iron tusba I “stumbled” across “The Japan Weekly Mail”.

 

“The Japan Weekly Mail: a review of Japanese Commerce, Politics, Literature, and Art, Yokohama”.  The below article was found in the July 6^th, 1889, issue on page 14, under “Japanese Sword Blades and Furniture”.

 

Which was found at the below website:

 

https://archive.org/details/jwm-bound-1889/page/13/mode/2up?view=theater

 

The article is very interesting, but I just attached what I thought were the important points below.  It was written from an editor of an art journal in London to the editor of the Japan Weekly Mail in Yokohama on May 17^th, 1889.

 

So, it seems that some of the same questions about tsuba have been asked for about 133 years!  He asks several questions that are listed in the article under his "Appendix Desiderata", but I only included the question about cast iron tsuba.

 

Also, this is the earliest date on research that I could find (so far!).  It predates the other research I found and posted that was found in the “Transactions and Proceedings of the Japan Society, London” (1914-1915) by 25 years!

The quote from the article follows below;

 

“It is in the hope that an interest does exist of which we are unaware, or that the matter may be ventilated, that I take the liberty of asking you to give publicity to my letter. It would be an immense benefit to collectors here if they could get into touch with collectors in Japan. ‘There are many points as to which we get hopelessly entangled here but which might easily be unraveled on the spot. I append only a few on which we seek information. Then again there are Japanese textbooks we would willingly contribute to the translation of. The interchange of photographs, which perhaps the Asiatic Society might kindly assist in, would be a real benefit.

I will not trouble you further but, apologizing for the length of my letter, beg to subscribe myself

Yours obediently, MARCUS B. HUISH, Editor of The Art Journal. London, May 17th, 1889.

 

APPENDIX.— DESIDERATA.

 

Old iron tsuba; whether often cast and decarbonized for chasing or damascening ;...…".

 

 

Now , as stated above, there were many more questions asked under the above heading, but I only included the question about cast iron tsuba. If you wish to see the complete article and all the other questions asked, I have provided the link above for your reference.

 

The adventure continues onward!

With respect,

Dan

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

So, some may consider this a “minor point” but I nonetheless find it very interesting.

 

Here is a quote from Mr. Huish (referred to in my previous post) from his book published in 1889-

 

“The decoration of the sword furniture showed symptoms of decline early in the present century. Working in hard wrought iron was first of all shirked, and similar effects were endeavoured to be produced by castings ; then the decoration ran riot and transgressed all limits, so that many of the pieces made between 1840 — 1870 could never have been used for the purposes for which they were professedly intended ; such pro- ducts are remarkable in a way, as showing the lengths to which elaboration may be carried, but they can never stand for a day beside the dignified workmanship of an earlier date.”  P.182

 

The longer quote was previously posted on this thread by Spartancrest (Dale) on February 17^th 2022 and came from this reference-

 

“JAPAN AND ITS ART” MARCUS B. HUISH, LL.B., EDITOR. OF "THE ART JOURNAL" LONDON THE FINE ART SOCIETY

Limited, 148, NEW BOND STREET

1889”

 

(So, when Mr.Huish is referring to the “present century” above, he is referring to the 19^th century or the 1800’s, since the book was printed in 1889).

 

Below is a weblink to his book-

 

https://archive.org/details/cu31924072968286/page/n199/mode/2up?view=theater

 

Now, an interesting point to consider.  In my previous post, I included part of a letter that Mr. Huish wrote to the “Japan Weekly Mail” in Yokohama Japan.  He asked a specific question about cast iron tsuba in that letter (please refer to that specific post).  He sent that letter on May 17^th, 1889.

 

Mr. Huish wrote the preface to his book in November of 1888.  So, I would think that his book was completed by that date, and then sent out for publishing.  It was then published in 1889.

 

So, it appears that Mr. Huish had completed his book (and the above quote taken from his book) before sending his question about cast iron tsuba to the “Japan Weekly Mail”.  Evidently, he still wanted further research done on the production of cast iron tsuba.

 

Whether he ever received a response from the “Japan Weekly Mail” is unknown to me.

 

Onward!

With respect,

Dan

[Spartancrest]

Harking back to the letter sent by Huish to the Japanese Weekly Mail  - and being way off subject - see what a difference ten years can make.

 

 

So is this an aspiration still held by collectors today? To have as close to a thousand examples tucked away in drawers? - - I  have a long way yet to go it seems. 

[ROKUJURO]

Did Mr. Huish have some competence in metallurgy? When he reports about "hard wrought iron", I have my doubts.

[Dan tsuba]

Jean,

 

My friend, your thoughts, opinions, and valuable knowledge are always appreciated by me.  Although, it seems to me (my personal opinion) that sometimes you miss the entire point of the subject being presented in the post.

 

As an example, in your recent post you stated “Did Mr. Huish have some competence in metallurgy? When he reports about "hard wrought iron", I have my doubts.” Now, after the entire post, that is all what you derived from it?

 

Well, the only way to find out the answer about his knowledge of metallurgy is to ask him.  But oh wait, he is dead!!  Unless you can do research to ascertain his knowledge on the subject, you really don’t know for sure. 

 

So, what is your point in presenting your opinion about his knowledge?  What are you trying to say?  I just wish to understand your point of view.

 

With respect,

Dan

 

[Spartancrest]

Of course Huish was writing for people who didn't necessarily care about the differences in iron and likely not metallurgists. As has been stated "hard" is a relative thing - I defy anyone hit over the head with a cast iron rod, as opposed to a wrought iron one, to be "conscious" of the difference. 

[ROKUJURO]

Dale,

I just tried your recommended experimental arrangement and I found out that you are correct. 

My comment was not aimed at Mr. Huish to discredit his findings, but I generally think that we cannot take any writings of amateurs as technical facts to be relied on. Especially, we cannot use these texts as evidence to base a line of reasoning on it.

But if someone is on a mission (or should I say 'crusade'?) to "prove" that cast TSUBA must have been made in EDO JIDAI in large quantity 'for the masses' (who were they? who would have bought inferior TSUBA, and for which purpose?) only because the technical possibility was given, then there is the danger to use any related information (be it correct or not) as a saving straw. 

[OceanoNox]

1 hour ago, ROKUJURO said:

but I generally think that we cannot take any writings of amateurs as technical facts to be relied on. Especially, we cannot use these texts as evidence to base a line of reasoning on it.

This is a very good point. I would add that even some craftsmen have misconceptions about the technical facts. Obviously they would know what happens, but the reasons/mechanisms are sometimes not clear even for professionals.

I would argue that a really informed text (especially for such a field as antiques) would have input from art specialists, craftsmen, historians, and scientists, as we all have a piece of the puzzle that the others miss.

 

1 hour ago, ROKUJURO said:

who were they? who would have bought inferior TSUBA, and for which purpose?

The only answer I would have to that would be tourists.

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

So (as Jean referred to it below) the “crusade” continues!  Hurrah!

 

Jean asked a question in his latest post about "for the masses".  I quote it below-

 

“But if someone is on a mission (or should I say 'crusade'?) to "prove" that cast TSUBA must have been made in EDO JIDAI in large quantity 'for the masses' (who were they? who would have bought inferior TSUBA, and for which purpose?) only because the technical possibility was given, then there is the danger to use any related information (be it correct or not) as a saving straw.”

 

Now, this is a very long thread.  I have often noticed that questions that are asked in current posts have already been answered in a previous post.

 

I have noticed that GRC (Glen) has addressed the above issue in more than one of his posts.  I include quotes from part of those posts.  If the reader is interested, they can read the entire post for themselves.

 

(part of a post from GRC 11/13/22)-

“I found it interesting that he also stated:

"I do not think that the majority of these “forgeries” were made for the European market."

*Caveat for this quote: this was specifically referring to "gimei tsuba" (tuba with fake signatures), but was placed in a passage that was addressing shiiremono more broadly.

In reading Joly's text, it seems clear to me that he is including cast-iron tsuba in with the broader group of "shiiremono".

So according to Joly, most of the Edo period productions that were "made for the masses" so to speak, were of lesser quality or were deliberate attempts at deceit, and were mostly being purchased by the Japanese themselves.”

 

(part of a post from GRC 11/14/22)

“It's interesting that cast-iron Choshu and Bushu tsuba (among others) were deliberately

called out, despite there not being any specific examples in this collection.

It speaks to how common they were, such that the author (Joly) would call attention to the fact.

In a period of relative decadence and opulence of the mid to late Edo period, it shouldn't be surprising that some members of society would opt to purchase the much less expensive cast-iron version of a famous tsuba, or one with a culturally significant or popular motif.

To compare it to a modern day equivalent, it's like people who would buy and wear a fake Rolex. The real ones are widely available, but not everyone can afford one. “

 

(part of a post from GRC 11/17/22)

“The inherent problem there is that you are talking about samurai again, not the target market for cast fittings... refocus your attention on the general populous who would have had a far more varied buying potential.

It is well documented that during the peaceful Edo period, some merchants had exceeded the wealth of many samurai, while the masses were still much less affluent.

Yet the samurai were still the "cultural elite", and the general masses were not as "cultivated" or as educated as the samurai themselves.

So, it doesn't take much of a leap to envision the general populous admiring the cast tsuba copies that have a lot more "obvious" designs with 3D depth to them, like "the frog" and "the rat", or any of the heavily carved "Choshu and Bushu" tsuba, as noted by Joly.

Now throw into the mix, many of the lower quality nanban tsuba that were so popular among the masses during the mid to late Edo period, as well as the multitude of cast copies of the Kinai dragon tsuba, or the myriad of examples in the Shachi tsuba thread.      

These surely would have appealed to those who were NOT the exalted aesthetes that Ford seems to think were the only people who were purchasing tsuba during the Edo period.

People also need to stop viewing these things as defensive tools during the Edo period.

The idea is absolute folly and is completely irrelevant in terms of determining whether or not cast-iron tsuba were produced in the Edo period. Yet it remains one of cornerstones of the "post-Edo believers".

What war, what battle was anyone getting into?

And that goes for both the samurai and the general populous.

The defensive potential or function of the tsuba, during the Edo period, is completely irrelevant to this whole topic.”

 

The “crusade” continues (and remember that in one of my previous posts this “crusade” question about cast iron tsuba was initially undertaken 133 years ago by Mr. Huish!).

 

With respect,

Dan

 

 

 

 

[ROKUJURO]

22 hours ago, OceanoNox said:

The only answer I would have to that would be tourists

In principle yes, but there were none in EDO JIDAI.

So again: Who were the masses to buy large quantities of cast iron TSUBA? 

[OceanoNox]

1 hour ago, ROKUJURO said:

In principle yes, but there were none in EDO JIDAI.

The smiley was meant to show a tongue-in-cheek comment. But at any rate, the Japanese in general were actually traveling a lot at the time (besides the lords and their retinues having to visit Edo).

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

Well, over the 10 months that this thread has been on the forum I (and others) have done some serious time-consuming and painstaking research!

 

I now feel that I have pretty much exhausted all the references and research that I can do on the subject of cast iron tsuba being made in the Edo period (or before).

 

Now, as mentioned in part of my previous post (of November 7, 2022) –

 

“Now, I know from trying to find research relating to this thread over the last several months that there is very little (almost none!) historical evidence written about “cast iron” tsuba possibly being produced in the Edo period.

 

Maybe the “16th generation iron casting family” has some “family written” old historical documents on the subject. Or, at least, some knowledge of it that was passed down by “oral tradition”? Not that I am going to fly to Japan and interview the family! But it would be an interesting way to find out if more (or any) historical information about the possibility of “cast iron” tsuba being produced in the Edo period is still in existence.

 

“That may finally conclude this very interesting thread.  Either way: “If cast iron tsuba were produced during the Edo period” or “if cast iron tsuba were not produced during the Edo period” I consider this thread to have been (and still is!) fun!”

 

 

And just so the question of ‘written documents” by Edo period craftsman does not come up again (as it did before) let me add a quote from another post of mine also dated November 7^th, 2022-

 

“When the Tokugawa period began, few common people in Japan could read or write.” 

 

Anyway, that is why Edo period craftsman passed down their knowledge by “word of mouth” or what is known as “oral tradition”.

 

Although my personal opinion is that if this thread is read in its entirety (if someone can get through it all!), an interested individual has enough referenced and researched material on hand to make an informed decision on the subject (one way or the other!).

 

So, until I can find more research that I can reference or save up my money for a roundtrip plane ticket to Japan! --

I guess the adventure (or “crusade” – as Jean likes to call it!) will continue in one form or another! 

 

With respect,

Dan

[Spartancrest]

[Bugyotsuji]

In conclusion to a wonderfully educational thread, and for decorative effect…

cast in iron and copper,

 

 

[GRC]

Well, I decided to see what the Artificial Intelligence program “ChatGPT” could do to search for information related to this topic.

It’s astonishing how much information it was able to find from published sources.

 

Here’s a direct copy of my interaction with the AI program.

My questions are indented and bolded.

ChatGPT’s response are underneath and unmodified by me.

 

So don’t shoot the messenger, this is purely a transcript of what ChatGPT was able to find in published sources.

 

I have not vetted any the references that it has provided.

I will leave that to others to find or comment on I they already have a copy in their possession.

It will be interesting to see if there any discrepancies in what was reported by ChatGPT.

 

Here’s the link if anyone wants to explore what it has to offer.

 

https://chatgptonline.ai/

 

In terms of information gathering and processing, it really is a new World…

[GRC]

The availability of cast-iron ingots was previously left in the "unknown" category.

 

Here is what ChatGPT found:

 

Again, my questions and prompts are BOLDED.

ChatGPT's responses are underneath each prompt from me, and  I didn't change any of them.

 

ChatGPT offers its own little summary statements after it is asked to provide references for its initial statements.

 

 

Did Japan produce cast-iron ingots for commercial trade during the Edo period?

 

Yes, Japan did produce cast-iron ingots for commercial trade during the Edo period. The production of cast iron was an important industry in Japan during this time, and cast-iron ingots were used for a variety of purposes, including the manufacture of tools, weapons, and other metal objects.

 

One of the most important centers of cast-iron production during the Edo period was the Kamaishi region in northeastern Japan. Kamaishi was known for its high-quality iron sand, which was used in the production of cast-iron ingots. These ingots were then transported to other parts of Japan and sold for use in various industries.

 

The production of cast-iron ingots was typically carried out by specialist ironworkers, who used traditional techniques to melt and pour the iron into molds. These ingots were often standardized in size and weight to make them easier to transport and trade.

 

Overall, the production of cast-iron ingots was an important industry in Japan during the Edo period, and these ingots were used for a wide range of purposes both domestically and in trade with other countries.

 

Provide references for these statements:

 

Here are some references to support the statement that Japan produced cast-iron ingots for commercial trade during the Edo period:

 

"Iron and Steel in the Japanese Industrial Revolution" by Richard W. Bulliet (1992): This book discusses the history of iron and steel production in Japan, including the importance of cast-iron ingots for trade. It notes that cast iron was a major export item for Japan during the Edo period, and that ingots were produced in large quantities for use in various industries.

 

"Japanese Cast Iron: A Comprehensive Guide to Antique Tetsubin and Subtsubo" by Sandi Hopper (2017): This book provides an overview of cast-iron production in Japan, including the production of ingots. It notes that cast-iron ingots were a key component of the Japanese iron industry during the Edo period, and that they were exported to other countries as well.

 

Provide references about the production of cast-iron ingots in Japan during the Edo period

 

Here are some references that specifically discuss the production of cast-iron ingots in Japan during the Edo period:

 

"The Emergence of Iron Smelting and Smithing in Japan" by J. Edward Kidder Jr. (1989): This article provides a detailed history of iron production in Japan, including the production of cast-iron ingots during the Edo period.

 

"The Making of Iron and Steel in Japan" by Donald H. Shively (1956): This article provides an overview of iron production in Japan, including the production of cast-iron ingots during the Edo period.

 

"Japanese Cast Iron: Origins, Production, and Significance" by David W. Johnson (1999): This article provides an overview of Japanese cast iron production, including the production of cast-iron ingots during the Edo period.

 

"The History of Ironmaking in Japan" by Masayuki Kawaguchi (2015): This book provides a comprehensive history of iron production in Japan, including the production of cast-iron ingots during the Edo period.

 

Overall, these references provide evidence that cast-iron ingots were an important part of Japanese iron production during the Edo period, and were produced using various techniques such as tatara ironmaking and blast furnace ironmaking.

 

 

[GRC]

So clearly, Japanese-made cast-iron ingots were widely available for use during the Edo period, making casting in iron much more accessible within Japan.

 

I decided to ask ChatGPT about tsuba, then more specifically about cast-iron tsuba produced during the Edo period.

 

My prompts are bolded, and ChatGPT's unedited responses are posted underneath.

 

 

Do you know what a tsuba is?

 

 

Yes, I do know what a tsuba is! In traditional Japanese swordsmanship, a tsuba is the handguard that sits between the hilt and the blade of a Japanese sword, such as a katana. The tsuba is typically made of metal and serves to protect the hand of the wielder from the blade, as well as to balance the sword. Often, tsuba are also ornately designed with intricate patterns or motifs, making them a beautiful piece of art as well as a functional part of the sword.

 

Did the Japanese produce tsuba made of cast-iron during the Edo period?

 

 

Yes, the Japanese did produce tsuba made of cast-iron during the Edo period, which lasted from 1603 to 1868. Cast-iron tsuba were especially popular from the mid-Edo period (18th century) onward.

 

 

[GRC]

I thought,

 

"Is this for real?", “It can’t be that easy for AI to make such a bold statement about something that has been debated on NMB for years... can it?”

 

So, I figured I should ask ChatGPT to provide references that support its statement of “Cast-iron tsuba were especially popular from the mid-Edo period (18th century) onward.”

 

Interestingly, it provides references in sets of three, but then you can ask it to provide more, and it will.

 

It defaults to providing references in the language that you wrote your question in, but then you can specify that it give you sources from a different language, like Japanese 😊

 

It also gives a short little blurb for each reference that states how the book supports the statement.

 

Before I post the list of 42 references I gathered from ChatGPT before giving up, I thought I’d give a short summary of all the “blurbs” ChatGPT provided…

 

This time, I will BOLD THE UNEDITED WORDS FROM ChatGPT.

My words are NOT bolded:

 

·      Cast-iron tsuba became popular during the mid-Edo period.

·      Cast-iron tsuba were produced in large numbers during the mid-Edo period, with many being made from the mid-18th century onward.

·      Cast-iron tsuba were often decorated with elaborate designs.

·      Cast-iron tsuba became more popular at that time due to:

        Advances in casting technology

        Durability

        Affordability/Low cost

        Changes in the social and economic environment.

 

Only one refence (in English) was described as stating:

 

·      Cast-iron tsuba were often used by lower-ranking samurai.

 

 

A major point of interest is that these references include several publications from the NBTHK, the Tokyo National Museum, the Japanese Sword Museum, and the Japanese Agency for Cultural Affairs.

 

Some people, who are still uncertain about the possibility of cast-iron tsuba being produced during the Edo period, have been holding out for some sort of "authentication" from the NBTHK.

ChatGPT listed the NBTHK as a supportive reference multiple times.  

 

It is also interesting to note that there are multiple Japanese publications that include examples of Edo-period cast-iron tsuba.

[GRC]

My prompts to ChatGPT are bolded.

ChatGPT's responses are posted underneath and unedited.

 

Japanese REFERENCE LIST

 

Provide Japanese references that support the statement

 

Here are some Japanese references that support the statement that "Cast-iron tsuba were especially popular from the mid-Edo period (18th century) onward":

 

1.「日本刀装具図鑑」(Nihon To Sogu Zukan) by Nobuo Ogasawara (2007): This book provides a comprehensive guide to Japanese sword fittings and notes that cast-iron tsuba became popular during the mid-Edo period due to their durability and affordability.

 

2.「刀剣の美術館」(Token no Bijutsukan) by the Tokyo National Museum (2011): This book is a catalog of the sword fittings collection at the Tokyo National Museum and includes several examples of cast-iron tsuba from the mid-Edo period.

 

3.「刀剣装具の世界」(Token Sogu no Sekai) by Yukio Hirose (1995): This book provides a detailed history of Japanese sword fittings and notes that cast-iron tsuba were produced in large numbers during the mid-Edo period.

 

Overall, these Japanese references support the idea that cast-iron tsuba were widely produced and used during the mid-Edo period due to their durability, affordability, and decorative potential.

 

Provide more Japanese references that support the statement

 

Here are some additional Japanese references that support the statement that "Cast-iron tsuba were especially popular from the mid-Edo period (18th century) onward":

 

4.「日本刀装具大鑑」(Nihon To Sogu Taikan) by the NBTHK (1994): This book is a comprehensive guide to Japanese sword fittings and includes several examples of cast-iron tsuba from the mid-Edo period.

 

5.「刀剣装飾の美術史」(Token Soshoku no Bijutsushi) by the Tokyo National Museum (1982): This book provides a detailed history of Japanese sword fittings and notes that cast-iron tsuba became popular during the mid-Edo period due to advances in casting technology.

 

6.「日本刀装具の美」(Nihon To Sogu no Bi) by the Japanese Sword Museum (2006): This book is a catalog of the sword fittings collection at the Japanese Sword Museum and includes several examples of cast-iron tsuba from the mid-Edo period.

 

Overall, these Japanese references provide further evidence that cast-iron tsuba were widely produced and used during the mid-Edo period, and were an important part of the development of Japanese sword fittings.

 

provide more Japanese references

 

Here are some additional Japanese references that support the statement that "Cast-iron tsuba were especially popular from the mid-Edo period (18th century) onward":

 

7.「日本刀装飾大鑑」(Nihon To Soshoku Daikan) by Kazuo Taizawa (2009): This book provides a comprehensive guide to Japanese sword fittings and notes that cast-iron tsuba became popular during the mid-Edo period due to their durability and affordability.

 

8.「刀剣装飾大鑑」(Token Soshoku Daikan) by Kiyoshi Takahashi (1985): This book provides a detailed history of Japanese sword fittings and notes that cast-iron tsuba were produced in large numbers during the mid-Edo period.

 

9.「刀剣の美術」(Token no Bijutsu) by the Japanese Sword Museum (2001): This book is a catalog of the sword fittings collection at the Japanese Sword Museum and includes several examples of cast-iron tsuba from the mid-Edo period.

 

Overall, these Japanese references support the idea that cast-iron tsuba were widely produced and used during the mid-Edo period due to their durability, affordability, and decorative potential, and are an important part of the history of Japanese sword fittings.

 

provide more Japanese references

 

Here are some additional Japanese references that support the statement that "Cast-iron tsuba were especially popular from the mid-Edo period (18th century) onward":

 

10.「日本刀の鑑賞基礎知識」(Nihon To no Kansho Kiso Chishiki) by Kazuo Taizawa (2014): This book provides an introduction to Japanese swords and their fittings, and notes that cast-iron tsuba were produced in large numbers during the mid-Edo period.

 

11.「日本刀装具大全」(Nihon To Sogu Taizen) by Nobuo Ogasawara (1993): This book is a comprehensive guide to Japanese sword fittings and includes several examples of cast-iron tsuba from the mid-Edo period.

 

12.「刀剣の美術」(Token no Bijutsu) by the NBTHK (2010): This book is a catalog of the sword fittings collection at the Nihon Bijutsu Token Hozon Kyokai (NBTHK) and includes several examples of cast-iron tsuba from the mid-Edo period.

 

Overall, these Japanese references provide further evidence that cast-iron tsuba were widely produced and used during the mid-Edo period, and are an important part of the history of Japanese sword fittings.

 

provide more Japanese references

 

Here are some additional Japanese references that support the statement that "Cast-iron tsuba were especially popular from the mid-Edo period (18th century) onward":

 

13.「刀剣の美と文化」(Token no Bi to Bunka) by the Agency for Cultural Affairs (2004): This book is a comprehensive guide to Japanese swords and their cultural significance, and notes that cast-iron tsuba became popular during the mid-Edo period due to advances in casting technology.

 

14.「日本刀装具の美」(Nihon To Sogu no Bi) by the Japanese Sword Museum (2018): This book is a catalog of the sword fittings collection at the Japanese Sword Museum and includes several examples of cast-iron tsuba from the mid-Edo period.

 

15.「刀剣装飾の美」(Token Soshoku no Bi) by the NBTHK (2016): This book is a catalog of the sword fittings collection at the NBTHK and includes several examples of cast-iron tsuba from the mid-Edo period.

 

Overall, these Japanese references provide further evidence that cast-iron tsuba were widely produced and used during the mid-Edo period, and were an important part of the development of Japanese sword fittings.

 

provide more Japanese references

 

Here are some additional Japanese references that support the statement that "Cast-iron tsuba were especially popular from the mid-Edo period (18th century) onward":

 

19.「日本刀装具の美術史」(Nihon To Sogu no Bijutsushi) by Hiroshi Hirano (1988): This book provides a detailed history of Japanese sword fittings and notes that cast-iron tsuba became popular during the mid-Edo period due to advances in casting technology and changes in the social and economic environment.

 

20.「日本刀装具図典」(Nihon To Sogu Zuten) by the NBTHK (2015): This book is a comprehensive guide to Japanese sword fittings and includes several examples of cast-iron tsuba from the mid-Edo period.

 

21.「日本刀装飾の技術」(Nihon To Soshoku no Gijutsu) by Masahiro Kubota (2019): This book provides an overview of the techniques used to create Japanese sword fittings, including cast-iron tsuba.

 

Overall, these Japanese references provide further evidence that cast-iron tsuba were widely produced and used during the mid-Edo period, and were an important part of the development of Japanese sword fittings.

 

provide more Japanese references

 

Here are some additional Japanese references that support the statement that “Cast-iron tsuba were especially popular from the mid-Edo period (18^th century) onward”:

 

22.「日本刀装具の世界」(Nihon To Sogu no Sekai) by the NBTHK (2001): This book provides a comprehensive overview of Japanese sword fittings and notes that cast-iron tsuba were widely produced during the mid-Edo period due to their durability and affordability.

 

23.「日本刀装具の美術」(Nihon To Sogu no Bijutsu) by the Tokyo National Museum (1998): This book is a catalog of the sword fittings collection at the Tokyo National Museum and includes several examples of cast-iron tsuba from the mid-Edo period.

 

24.「日本刀装具の世界展」(Nihon To Sogu no Sekai-ten) by the NBTHK (2015): This exhibition catalog includes several examples of cast-iron tsuba from the mid-Edo period, and provides a detailed overview of their history and significance.

 

Overall, these Japanese references provide further evidence that cast-iron tsuba were widely produced and used during the mid-Edo period, and were an important part of the development of Japanese sword fittings.

 

provide more Japanese references

 

Here are some additional Japanese references that support the statement that "Cast-iron tsuba were especially popular from the mid-Edo period (18th century) onward":

 

25.「日本刀装具事典」(Nihon To Sogu Jiten) by Kazuo Taizawa (2010): This book provides a comprehensive guide to Japanese sword fittings and notes that cast-iron tsuba became popular during the mid-Edo period due to their durability and affordability.

 

26.「日本刀装具図鑑」(Nihon To Sogu Zukan) by the NBTHK (2012): This book is a comprehensive guide to Japanese sword fittings and includes several examples of cast-iron tsuba from the mid-Edo period.

 

27.「日本刀装飾の美術史」(Nihon To Soshoku no Bijutsushi) by the Tokyo National Museum (2012): This book provides a detailed history of Japanese sword fittings and notes that cast-iron tsuba became popular during the mid-Edo period due to advances in casting technology.

 

Overall, these Japanese references provide further evidence that cast-iron tsuba were widely produced and used during the mid-Edo period, and were an important part of the development of Japanese sword fittings.