Request with Hira-zukuri Ko-wakazashi please

[D-Lewis]

Hello, hope everyone is having a great New Years eve :-)

Working on a sword and am struggling. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

This is what I have so far:

Sugata=Hira zukuri Ko-wakazashi

Torii zori of 1.1cm

Hada = ko-mokume to masame

Hamon = (where I'm having the most trouble) Gunome midare

Nioi or Nie...no idea. haven't figured out what to look at or for

Boshi = Kaeri fukai

Kissaki = O-kissaki with rounded fukura

Hi = tome is kakitoshi, hisaki is agaru

Mune = is Ihori at machi but flattens to nothing halfway down the blade (no idea what that's called)

Nakago = Ubu 11.6cm, futsu

Nakagojiri = Kurijiri with Kattesagari yasurime

Mei = Niji-mei (think the second character may be Mune)

Have not had time to get to Koshirae yet. Maybe this weekend. :-)

Have looked through a few Kanji charts but could only get a guess at the second character.

 

Thank you for your help and tutelage.

Regards

Doug

Also, not having a proper grasp of Japanese, if I have misused a term please let me know.

[John A Stuart]

I think 'Sukemune'. John

[D-Lewis]

Hello John,

Thank you for you help.

Sorry for the delay in reply.

I've been reading about Niji may and find Nijimei was most popular in Koto Era blades. They were specifically popular during the Heian (782-1184) and Kamakura (1184-1332) periods.

Looking at the NihontoClub.com swordsmith database (an incredible resource!) I found 18 Sukemune with 3 being from Kamakura.

I will be taking a closer look at these a see if they pan out.

Thank you again for your help with my language skills. :-)

 

Regards

Doug

[Jean]

Doug,

 

The sword is perhaps koto, but not the mei. The nakago is by no means Kamakura (by the look of the part where is the mei)

 

Have a look in different books at Kamakura mei and you will find that this one looks very modern/recent (no wear - In particular, the atari).

 

BTW, niji mei was used by some schools in Muromachi. You find it in Bizen and above all in Shimada school, Suruga province, where you can find a Sukemune, but I feel sure it is not this one. These two kanji are very oddly cut.

 

I am not sure that the mekugi ana is not drilled

[Brian]

Yep, doesn't appear near Kamakura to me. I'm not confident about the mei either. Tagane aren't flowing in some cases, and some strokes look composed of more than one line. It looks cut much later. However the blade does look good, and that looks like a very interesting hi there? Is that a soe-hi that is above the bo-hi, and cut almost on the mune? Interesting horimono.

 

Brian

[Jean]

What a coïncidence :

 

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/tanto/08621.html

[D-Lewis]

I am always humbled at just how little I know :-)

Taking a look at your posts I see that I was a bit off originally (more like way off)

The Mei is really something I need to study but I've put it below figuring out blades.

I'm going back over the terms to make sure I fully understand the wisdom imparted.

Jean, I looked at your link and it has a number of similarities. It has been polished and you can see the attributes really well. I've bookmarked the page and intend to search through it more thoroughly.

Brian, the Hi is one continuous groove. It doesn't have a second line and originally I thought the hi went through the end of the handle but it actually tapers and ends just at the tip. I am also learning to properly photograph them :-) BTW, what is the term for a mune that starts ihori and then flattens out in the middle of the blade?

Jean, as to the blade being modern do you mean recently? It was purchased back around 1880 and sat in a gallery for a while and then a storage drawer for almost 100 years. My books (all 5 of them so far) don't have a lot of mei in them. I've seen a few offered but as they are in Japanese I haven't the skill to utilize them yet. Do you have any suggestions for books possibly? The mekugi-ana does look clean compared to the few others I've seen. Could it have been heated and then stamped out?

 

Have a lot of reading on my hands. Thank you all for your help

Regards

Doug

[Jean]

Hi Doug, from the pictures, it "could fit" (very cautious I am my precious - sorry, I feel a little Gollum this morning (- 10°C)) sue Muromachi, so I was not talking about the blade, but the mei being added later on. It is very crisp with no wear at all. Through ages, writting has evolved. No exception with Japan. Have a look at Kamakura mei, compare it to Muromachi ones, Shinto and Shinshinto, you see what I mean.

 

Suruga province with Shimada school is a well known school in which you can find different influences, mainly Sue Soshu and Mino.

 

The tanto I linked to has a typical suguta. In thie tanto, you will fin often very long kaeri, muneyaki,, sometimes togari ...

 

An overall picture of the blade + a picture of the whole tang would be helpful

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Nagasa (cutting edge lenght) please?

[D-Lewis]

Hello,

Nagasa is 44.8cm or 1 Shaku, 4 Sun, 7.48 Bu

I attached a picture of the blade and apologize if it is not at the proper angle.

Thank you for your curiosity :-)

Regards

Doug

[reinhard]

Hi Doug,

 

What I can tell from your pictures and infos:

 

A hira-tsukuri wakizashi of 44cm+ with a mei > hardly shortened or ubu > not older than later Nambokucho period

 

Obvious saki-sori > not older than later Muromachi period (Tenmon to Tensho period)

 

Hamon seems to be a mixture of notare and gunome midare with togari > Soshu and Mino roots

 

The mei "SUKEMUNE" (associated with Suruga Shimada-school) fits in quite well there and the mei looks quite similar to some reference material I found, but there is one irritating thing: The Kanji for "SUKE" is missing the very first stroke to begin with and I can't find any genuine example parallel to this. Eventually someone else can.

 

reinhard

[D-Lewis]

Reinhard,

not older than later Nambokucho period

Can you lead me through this? The few sources I have do not talk to this and I still don't have enough brain cells to make any leaps.

Obvious saki-sori

This one still looks like Torii zori to me. I had to flip it because I can't do it in my head :-) If it was Torii wouldn't that speak more towards your first idea of Kamakura vice contrasting it with saki?

Looking at the pictures I have, your description of the hamon is great. I went back and compared several examples and see exactly what you mean. I think learning this would be made more efficient under a Yoda-like tutor :-)

I'm struggling with the mei primarily because it is my weakest area. Using your analysis and comparing it with the little I have, it does seem peculiar one of the strokes is missing. Is that common of a particular smith? Could it have been a student? or something I was thinking earlier, were mei ever stamped into the nakago? I thought maybe this would account for Jean's comment about how crisp they look.

What is your primary reference for mei? Is it a particular book, site or the gift of reading it?

 

Thank you for your insight

Time to hit the books

Regards

Doug

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Wakizashi do not exist in Kamakura and Nanbokucho period. They appeared during Muromachi era.

 

About the kanji Suke the left vertical stroke doesn't miss, it is only suggested. The Toko taikan lists six Sukemune (3 without oshigata) in Mikawa province.

 

[reinhard]

Hi Doug,

 

The idea of wakizashi existed only rudimentary before early Muromachi (Oei) period and certainly not before Nanbokucho period. During Nanbokucho period tanto became exaggerated in measures, slightly exceeding one Shaku (30.3cm) in length at the beginning. Technically they must be named (ko-)wakizashi nowadays, but they were actually made in the shape of very big tanto in hira-tsukuri shape. During middle and late Nanbokucho period, when extremely huge o-dachi were made, the size was sometimes extended again and these (few) blades can't be called oversized tanto anymore. There is a hira-tsukuri wakizashi (juyo token) by Yoshii KAGENORI, unshortened, signed and dated Joji third year (1364) with a nagasa of 49.2cm. The difference to your blade is the sugata. The KAGENORI blade is still made in a shape reminding of tanto, whereas your wakizashi clearly shows the idea of wakizashi. I'm afraid I can't explain this in short terms.

J&J de France are both right: Condition of nakago and mei suggest a date of manufacture not before later Muromachi period and true wakizashi dating from Kamakura period just don't exist.

To your question about sori: It is quite tricky to tell from amateur pics, but the sori of your blade seems definitely to be saki-sori. The center of curvature seems to be at least in the middle of the blade and the curvature towards the point is very strong. This is more obvious on the lower pic.

 

reinhard

[D-Lewis]

Good evening,

Jacques your comment is revealing to me. I have read the Connoisseur's...section on tanto/wakazashi (63-65) and didn't pick up that they only mention wakazashi until pg 64 Nanbokucho and then the length was only 30cm not 44cm. Sounds easy now but I had looked right passed it. Originally I thought it was omitted because of brevity. There isn't a mention of a Ko-Wakazashi of this length at all in the section. The closest is Late Edo out to 43cm. I also didn't make the clear distinction between Katana and Wakizashi with regards to the info in the book. Thanks for the help with understanding.

 

Reinhard your terms are well chosen. If you notice I tend to have no shortage of words :-) I know it's old-hat for most of you on this forum but this kind of explanation helps me a great deal. I've also been going through the NCJSC Novice Course to learn more, it is far from Novice however, in my opinion (Thank you to Dr Robson). The issue with the sori seems to be 2 parts for me. The first I think is a bit of visual trickery. My mind imagines the curve one way. Second, I was looking only at the mune. When I also add in the ha towards the Kissaki I agree the curvature seems to move closer to the end. Yes, I am definately an amateur with taking photos of swords. I've looked around a little and haven't found a good reference for this. Do any of the Nihonto-Sensei here have something on techniques of properly photographing a Nihonto to bring out its beauty?

 

The more I read, and admit my inaccuracies :-) I see similarities in Momoyama. Hira-zukuri, wide mihaba (about 3.5 cm at machi and 2.8cm at kissaki),proportional kissane (.7cm),stronger zori(not), fukura is rounded. Zori is off from Momoyama and the length is perplexing and seems to be more like late Edo. What a wonderful puzzle. The weight and feel of the blade is heavy, balanced and sharp as anything. You pick it up and just want to hear it sing.

 

Thanks again

Doug

[Jean]

How would you name this sword, nagasa=37cm, ubu signed by Kunitoshi, late Kamakura

[Brian]

Kamakura wakizashi, shinogi zukuri with 37cm nagasa? Hmm.

Were they doing child's swords back then?

 

Brian

[John A Stuart]

The use of a companion sword analogous to the wakizashi during the Kamakura period was the koshigatana (under 2 shaku). We mustn't forget the chisagatana (under 2 shaku) of the Nambokucho and Muromachi periods as well. It was worn by ashigaru singly as a back-up to their spear or halberd. Both were worn in the obi and were forerunners of the katana and wakizashi by way of the uchigatana. John

[Guido]

The answer is pretty simple: Kodachi!

 

Koshigatana is an old term for Tantô, and Chiisagatana are Tantô mounted with Tsuba, Tsukamaki etc.

[John A Stuart]

Hi Guido, I had always thought koshigatana and uchigatana could reach over 1 and 1/2 shaku in length. John

[Guido]

Let me quote from my Koshirae article:

Before the Uchigatana 打刀 came into being, shorter swords mounted differently from Tachi 太刀 were called Chiisagatana 小さ刀 or Koshigatana 腰刀 (hip-sword). Chiisagatana 小さ刀, which literally means "short Katana 刀," are Tantô 短刀 or Sunnobi-Tantô 寸延短刀 mounted in a similar fashion as Katana 刀. Another term for Chiisagatana 小さ刀 is Tsubagatana 鍔刀 or "sword with Tsuba 鍔," as opposed to Aikuchi 合口 (“meeting mouth”), which is usually Tantô 短刀 without Tsuba 鍔.

 

Although the meaning of Chiisagatana 小さ刀 changed over the course of history, this term was used from the Edo period 江戸時代 on to describe Tantô 短刀 that had a Tsuba 鍔 and usually Tsukamaki 柄巻 (hilt binding) as well. It is a common misconception that Chiisagatana 小さ刀 stands for a sword slightly shorter than a Katana 刀 (i.e., Wakizashi 脇差) but mounted in a Katana 刀 sized Koshirae 拵.

[John A Stuart]

Hi Guido, As various articles I had read over time had them reaching longer lengths, I guess I had always embraced the longer lengths story. Rather than flip through books for examples, I surfed a few conflicting sources on the net. This exemplifies how confusion might arise.

 

Other articles like this from 'Shadow of Leaves'

Chiisagatana, lit. "short katana", are shoto mounted as katana. Now, one could argue that wakizashi are shoto which are mounted in a similar way to katana, and that's absolutely correct. But we're talking here about the predecessors of the daisho, the formal katana/wakizashi pair. In the transitional period from tachi to katana, katana were called "uchigatana", and shoto were referred to as "koshigatana" (hip-sword) and "chiisagatana", in many cases quite longer than the later "standard" wakizashi.

 

One can't make out the difference between wakizashi and chiisagatana by blade alone, although a Koto shoto close to 2 Shaku (like the above mentioned O-wakizashi) would be a good indication; it depends on the mountings. Chiisagatana are the early shoto type with koshirae not easily distinguishable from the uchigatana, just shorter, but in any case with a tsuba (another term for chiisagatana is "tsubagatana", "sword with tsuba", as opposed to aikuchi). The ban of carrying swords for non-Samurai wasn't in effect yet, so people from all runs of life, who preferred shorter blades, would have chosen the chiisagatana/ koshigatana/ O-wakizashi/ tsubagatana.

 

or 'Budopaedia'

A chiisakatana is simply a shorter katana. It is longer than the wakizashi, lying between one and two shaku in length. The most common reference to a chiisakatana is a shorter katana that does not have a companion blade. They were most commonly made in the buke-zukuri mounting.

 

but, Bizen Osafune Sword Museum agrees,

Tanto is less than 1 foot, and called Koshigatana or Aikuchi.

 

'Nara National Museum-Treasures of Itsukushimajinja' has an o-tanto described,

Short Sword (tantô: koshigatana)

 

although 'japanesesword.eu' says,

When worn with full armour, the tachi would be accompanied by a shorter blade in the form known as koshigatana ("waist sword"); a type of short sword with no hand-guard (tsuba) and where the hilt and scabbard meet to form the style of mounting called an aiguchi ("meeting mouth"). Daggers (tantō), were also carried for close combat fighting as well as carried generally for personal protection.

 

 

The last one would lead one to seperate a koshigatana and tanto as two seperate entities. The 'Budopaedia' entry and the 'Shadow of Leaves' entry by definition would be totally wrong. Ah well that is normal, eh? John

[reinhard]

How would you name this sword, nagasa=37cm, ubu signed by Kunitoshi, late Kamakura

 

Jean,

 

The blade you are showing was originally made as a naginata. Most of the nakago was cut off and the point-section reshaped. As you probably know, naginata exist in various lengths since very early times. Therefore it is no contradiction to the afore-said statements.

 

reinhard

[D-Lewis]

Wow. Talk about a diversity of answers.

Ok...no laughing :-) Here's my try

Blade type: Ko-dachi (1 shaku, 2 sun, 2.1 bu)

Construction: Shinogi-zukuri, Koshi-zori

Nakago Futsu with Kiri-Jiri and Sujikai Yasurime

Mei appears on the outside with the blade down like a tachi.

Looks shortened but I don't have enough smarts to get me to a Naginata.

 

Let the learning begin :-)

Regards

Doug

[Guido]

I retract my previous answer and join Reinhard's camp!

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

about Koshigatana (The Japanese sword by Kanzan Sato)

 

[John A Stuart]

Hi Jacques, It describes a sword by Tomonari, but, what is its' length? Funny how if it is just a form of tanto there is a differentiation between it and tanto themselves. The fact that it is aiguchi does not limit it to any size. Kenshin's sword, for example, was aiguchi, although, it was a full sized sword. I had always taken it for granted that koshigatana were more sword-like than dagger-like, being in essence a pre-cursor to the wakizashi, as were chisagatana. I do not want to belabour the point, however, it was a fundamental I had been comfortable with and desire incontrovertible evidence to continue being comfortable. Thanks, John

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

the blade shown has a 20.3cm nagasa.

 

You can see here another example of koshigatana and the blade is obviously a tanto.

 

 

Personally, i would be careful with some internet sources.

[John A Stuart]

The blade in the picture (oshigata) is the Hisakuni tanto mentioned in the article. That koshigatana/tanto in aiguchi mounts is great. Yes, the Internet can cause difficulties, yet, I have read that info elsewhere. I think I will promote neither view until more sure, notwithstanding Guidos and your view thus far. John

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

That's not my view, my knowledge is too little. I only believe that has said Kanzan Sato Sensei whom knowledge cannot be suspected even By Tanobe Sensei. As for the appearance of the wakizashi, he said this below.

 

 

 

 

 

About Chiisagatana:

 

http://world.choshuya.co.jp/sale/sword/ ... /index.htm