Jump to content

Lacing


Steffieeee
 Share

Recommended Posts

Can anyone help me fathom what is going on here with the lacing pattern? I have bought some new lacing silk and I'm ready to have a go, but this is so far gone I'm having trouble actually copying what I see. Is each lame laced with individual bits of Ito or is or a continuous row down from the helmet rim down to the bottom lame? I can't see any knots anywhere so I assume the latter. Anything else obvious I'm missing. It doesn't look very complicated but I need to know what pattern to follow before anything. Thanks

post-5171-0-71541700-1581424810_thumb.jpg

post-5171-0-06368500-1581424834_thumb.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Steffieeee, 

 

This should get you going in the right direction:

 

https://yoroi.uk/katchushi-odoshi/

 

Dave's a regular hereabouts and knows his way about odoshi from a practical stance.

 

You will have to sign up for the next link, but, fear not,  it's populated by some quite charming types who also are regular contributors to NMB.

 

http://www.nihonto-yoroi.com/forum/forum/katchu-%E7%94%B2%E5%86%91-Japanese-armour/armour-related-topics/8287-yahoo-look-and-learn-an-unlimited-resource-of-education/page2

 

:)

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is a link, it has a section on Sukage. https://sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/katchuch05

 

Depending on how the top lame is attached to the bowl, determines where you start. Essentially, it's a large "U, and starts at the top and works it way down. I usually cut my odoshi 40-50% longer than needed. Some do 30%. I take a "U" shaped section, dangle it from the top, and drape  it down past the bottom lame, and add 30-50% then cut it. It's easier for me to cut off than to add if you under guess.

 

The tucks, twists, and knots are critical to making this look good. Also need to size the silk odoshi to the proper ana (hole) size.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just take care that as you add more lames, they add more weight on the bit already laced and stretch the lacing already done, throwing the even spacing of the lames out. You must also lace the whole of each lame before adding the next. The other very important point is that sugake lacing is fastened into the holes by little plugs forced into the holes under the lacing from the back. Without these, the lacing is dragged to the bottom of the holes by the weight and looks rather bad. Other than that it is not too difficult.

Ian Bottomley

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Basically a cross-knot but a bit modified. By the way, all he cross-knots should 'go' the same way over the whole piece. So, there will be two end through the top two holes in the lowest lame. Bring what would be the under braid in all your other cross-knots over on the diagonal and cut it off just where it would go through the lower hole. Now bring the top braid over the cut end (add a touch of paste here if you wish to make sure it doesn't undo) and into the lower hole. This now goes horizontally across the back and out through the other bottom hole. Cut it off and tuck the tab under the diagonal bit, again with a touch of paste if you wish.

Ian Bottomley

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

Well I finally got this little repair done. Very slow going but I'm quite pleased with the result, not perfect by any means but certainly better than the lames all falling asunder. Normally I'd have been inclined to leave the old silk but in this instance there was so little of it left it had to be done. If there's a fast way of strengthening the fingers this is it...! Anyway as this is the first time I've ever done this, next time will be 100x easier. PS wonky strings are cos the helmet is at an angle

 

I'm guessing the red silk has startled a few lol

post-5171-0-46563700-1583796954_thumb.jpg

post-5171-0-64032800-1583796981_thumb.jpg

post-5171-0-65235200-1583797009_thumb.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think we are all happy to receive constructive criticism, but you are missing the constructive part. How about making that response educational and giving some tips?
Not that we encourage amateur restoration of genuine items I guess. Advanced collectors and restorers will always see tons of things wrong.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dave has never been in the running for a “charm award”, but I think he was being honest. For feedback, it’s pulled to tight, the edge rolls are not uniform, the cross-nots are pulled to tight and don’t make the proper button shape, and spacing of the lames is off.

 

It’s a start but if he wants it to look good, spend the time and do it right. Looking at authentic armor will tell you what it should look like. Dave and Ian have several articles on the web and Anthony Bryant’s site is still up. They instruct on what success looks like.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Justin. Yep I,m aware of those points, and plan to redo it again at some point now I've had a practise. In my defence, the original lacing that survived had the same level of tightness on the crossover spots, and the distances were also governed by the surviving parts of the lacing. I kept them all on while I was lacing to get the same evenness. Obviously the deterioration of most of of the other lacings probably altered those features. but it's easy enough to fix. The idea that I am wrecking some sacrosanct piece of history by actually redoing the lacing myself is really unfortunate, the lames were literally all hanging off before and were getting damaged.  SO based on that unanimous round of approval I will redo it. Considering that's the first time I ever did I thought it wasn't bad actually  :)

 

I appreciate the honest feedback Justin ty

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have to agree with Justin. The major error is not flattening out the braid as it emerged from a hole to the outside. Also I suspect you have not used the paper plugs either. Start again and take your time getting each lame right before rushing to add another.

Ian Bottomley

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Ian. Noted. Actually I went to considerable trouble getting the lacing to become rounded rather than flatten out as I thought that was how it was supposed to be on two other old helmets of mine.  So it was kind of deliberate. But it is easy to snip off and start again now I know how it's supposed to be. 

 

One issue I found odd... the first lame springs out quite a bit. Maybe that's a feature of this earlier guard?   This was how it was originally as the blue thread was still present on this part and holding it correctly, even though it seems too big a gap to the eye. the first row of lacing at the front is designed to hold all the lames level, but if you tighten it too much the first lame gets pulled up quite high which isn't right. As I say the gap was originally this wide.

 

Do you think the red works? or stick to blue?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The blue lacing was not done right either. So please don’t use it as any reference. As for the lames, I run a temp line down both front and the back middle. This can allow for proper spacing.

The best plugs is rice paper and white glue. You can buy it colored blue and it can hide better.

 

I’m not picking on you. It takes a lot to want to try. Take it as constructive feedback. When I started Dave busted my chops, but it comes from his desire to make us want to do better.

 

Use blue, the flashier then color, the more mistakes stand out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I appreciate the tips, and the cricitism, I do realise it wasn't great and happy to learn from mistakes, that's the way for self improvement right :) It's actually very satisfying so maybe I'll try more

I'm happy to know even the old lacing was incorrect, as that was clearly ancient..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1/10 is exactly what it is. He has broken ever rule in the book.

When I went to Japan and visited the Katchushi Ogawa he verbally kicked my butt all over the living room for about an hour with regard to restoring katchu without researching the correct way first.
I was talking with Mr Hallam the other day about how we craftsman that have devoted our lives to learning how to do things correctly can be seen as arrogance, he was referred to as a primadona for being critical of a crap carving. The good student will accept this and learn how to do it correctly, the ignorant will ignore, call you a hater.

I have met Steff two times and and exchanged many WhatsApp messages, at the Arms Fairs he attends I, Mike Hickman Smith, Bas, Les the UK shokunin host a table for collectors and the enthusiastic where they can freely ask us questions or even place a commission. 16hrs in the same room and Steff has never asked for help, he can bind tuska and lace armours with no assistance from the experts, the professionals that do this day in, day out. This Know-it-all attitude delivers the result we have seen above, discard all the excuses and talk of cocktail sticks. What we have is a prime example of a poor job conducted by someone that knows better and then seeks validation.

Ian Bottomley, Trevor Absolon, Bryant and myself have provided many online FREE guides to lacing armour. It takes a quick google to locate them. When you meet us in person at symposiums and token events we help. I travelled to the Samurai Art Expo at my own expense and run a table for all attendees to come and talk about katchu, urushi, odoshi etc. Many people on this group have contacted me in the past for tips and guidance, and to date I have helped all of them. As to amateur restoration I am not fond of this and have yet to see the message board open a do-it-yourself polish your own blade section.

Please do not attack me for this, I seem to be the only professional katchushi on this forum now, I doubt you will get another.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm more than happy to learn, and learning by practically doing these things is the best way. Got to start somewhere right.So I'm going to redo it, not a problem. I have no chip on my shoulder about any of it whatsoever, and want to make the helmet look as good as it can, and be as accurate. Asking for help when I appear to be vilified for even daring to have a go seemed fairly inappropriate tbh. Anyway I do appreciate all comments, this stuff certainly arouses the passions. As it should.

 

 

 

Very nice to see the Bryant website never come across it before. And Dave I apologise, I have only just seen your guide on your site now, it does indeed cover everything very thoroughly so that will be a big help second time around.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

Dave is no longer a participant here, having incurred the wrath of myself one too many times.
But one thing I do agree with him, is that just like swords, it takes years of study to restore any Japanese antiques, and I am not comfortable with this forum becoming a how-to discussion.
Hope you understand folks. But there are armour forums out there better suited to this. I will still allow limited advice such as Ian gives, in the hope that repair attempts will not be destructive. But please let's not go the way of a step by step guide on how to do things yourself. There are professionals who spend their lives doing this, and we need to support them.
Again, not a ban, but just a caution.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I deleted my post. And I've been musing over your comments for hours. (Although I think my lacing was pretty on the money).  I think there's another perspective. I read this a couple of months ago posted elsewhere by Dave Thatcher.

 

I think collectors need to understand that having an item restored traditionally is no longer their choice. Katchushi have not been supported enough over the years which has prevented younger people wanting to learn the profession. The result is that there are now less than a handful of competent katchushi remaining. The good ones are fully booked for many years in advance which only leaves the dross who will not be able to make such a good job. Skilled Katchushi also know that they can make more money from buying and repairing their own items for sale rather than take on commissions from others.

Discarding the cost of restoration even to have a skilled katchushi actually accept your item and work for you has now become a very luxury. My advice when buying is only to buy the best you can at whatever you can afford, or to buy something that has been restored. Katchu is designed to be maintained, with no maintenance it self destructs over the years and any investment you have goes with it.

 

So for most of us, having items restored professionally isn't an option so people will continue to do it themselves. Rather than frightening them off and turning them into closet restorers, going for a can of automotive filler and black two pack spray gloss, isn't it better to give advice and help? If it's the wrong advice I'm sure someone  like Ian B that knows better will jump in pretty fast.  Stef's lacing is pretty ordinary and people have been quick to tell him. he says he's going to give it another go and hopefully with advice, he'll do a better job. And at least he's consolidated all the parts of his kabuto!.

 

Just food for thought. 

 

JB

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...