A Kaneie tsuba ...

[docliss]

This is a thin, darkly patinated, mumei iron guard measuring 8.2 – 7.5 cm. Tsuchime-ji, and with an uchikaeshi mimi, it depicts, in low relief engraving, a moored punt with a thatched cover and a gold T-pole. There are low relief vegetation and wave forms, with sparing, gold decoration and, above this scene, a silver moon shines above a low relief mountain range. On the reverse are more, low-relief waves. The sekigane are very deep brown in colour, and are possibly of nigurome.

 

Your comments, please ....

 

Regards, John L.

[Aldwin]

Very beautiful piece. I love the simplicity of the design.

[Ford Hallam]

I think that it is perhaps a little too refined for the Kaneie appellation. I know Yasuchika used that little punt at least once...I wonder if there might be an influence from that school instead. The nakago-ana is a little reminiscent of Yasuchika also.

[Curran]

Just shooting from the hip here:

 

Any reason we aren't jumping to Saga Kaneie here? Kaneiye is a true weakpoint in my knowledgebase, but I expect better iron out of him and much of this tsuba says later Edo to me.

 

Maybe I have it backwards, but the mountains being rounded vs. more pointed is something that points away from Saga Kaneiye. The punt is better defined than I would expect in Saga Kaneiye, but the low relief doesn't argue for anyone else. It might also be a product of one of the Shoami schools.

 

John, if you have insight into the tsuba- then maybe wait for a few more responses, then share with us what you know. I cannot divine much special on this tsuba, as Kaneiye has rarely got my attention. One knowledgable dealer did say to me once that the true Kaneiye feel exponentially different in person. I don't think I've ever had the chance to sit down with one and study it.

[Brian]

The (very) little that I know about Kaneie tsuba would back up what Curran said..and I do get the impression that a lot of the Kaneie workmanship is best seen in hand and from the actual working and composition of the steel..hard to see in pics. I will be looking out in Japan to expand my knowlege on them. There is something about the shape of the tops of the mountains..

 

Brian

[Bungo]

http://www.esnips.com/web/tsuba?docsPage=2#files

 

more on page 3

 

 

milt

[Pete Klein]

This is a genuine Kaneiye:

[Brian]

Stunning tsuba Pete, yours?

You can see how well the surface has been worked. Can you give us some kantei points on it?

 

Brian

[Pete Klein]

LOL!!! I could only wish that was mine! I'm not certain if it is in a museum or privately held. I would suggest you just drink it in and you'll pull together what makes a Kaneiye a Kaneiye. As you said, "You can see how well the surface has been worked". That's the kantei point. The finest surface work, period.

[Ford Hallam]

"You can see how well the surface has been worked". That's the kantei point. The finest surface work, period.

WELL....Pete, that's a contentious point if every there was one . Nobuie would be a contender at least...

 

I would suggest that a major part of the deserved fame of early Kanie work is the way it "translates" Sung dynasty ink painting ( the Chinese painter Mokkei in particular ) aesthetics into iron. This, of course, was part of the absorption of Taoist and Chan philosophies and is therefore a significant point in the evolution of warrior culture.

[Pete Klein]

Nope, sorry -- Nobuie isn't even close. And I do own Nobuie. Real Nobuie.

LOL!

[Rich T]

Have to agree with Pete here guys, I have sat and held 12 1st and 2nd gen Nobuie in one sitting, all very very beautiful, and 3 Kaneie, 1st and 2nd in another. the Kaneie left me speechless. There is a general feeling in Japan, as far as I know that that Kaneie are held in higher regard than Nobuie, and much scarcer to boot.

 

Ford is correct also in regards to the themes, but there is much more to Kaneie than his pictorials.

 

Another point John, I cannot not ever remember seeing a mumei Kaneie, even Saga Kaneie. Personally, I think yours is a late Edo copy by an artist of another school.

 

The image Pete linked is one of my favorite Kaneie tsuba, along with the monkey reaching for the moon.

 

Rich

[Ford Hallam]

the Kaneie left me speechless. There is a general feeling in Japan, as far as I know ( :lol: ) that that Kaneie are held in higher regard than Nobuie, and much scarcer to boot.

....

 

Nope, sorry -- Nobuie isn't even close. And I do own Nobuie. Real Nobuie

 

well...in the face of such overwhelming, and objective, factual assessment of aesthetics there is obviously nothing more to say on this forum....

[Pete Klein]

LOL -- all in good humor! Seriously, they are wonderful and it is true they are considered (arguably) to be the finest but then again there are truly great examples in many schools. I think the important point is that Kaneiye (person, family or school) got the grand slam of putting it all together for the first time in the iron field. Being in the right place at the right time always helps.

[Bungo]

what ? My kaneiye is chopped liver ?

 

LOL

 

Milt

[Pete Klein]

Not at all Milt, not at all -- just the lemon next to the pie...

[Ford Hallam]

Cheers, Pete...my point exactly...we are talking about subjective criteria here and the subject; ie; Doc's tsuba is actually the focus....we need to remain as objective as possible if we are to work towards any sort of assessment. The appropriate place, in my opinion, for discussions about the ultimate aesthetic is in a salubrious setting while supping ones preferred tipple with equally incorrigible persons. :D

 

There is no real argument from me re; Kanie surface finish...I wish I could do the same , ...or even Nobuie...if I must settle for second best

I think the important point is that Kaneiye (person, family or school) got the grand slam of putting it all together for the first time in the iron field.

... in terms of getting it all together...well, there again we are talking about a very subjective set of criteria. No argument that anyone could invent can even begin to hint otherwise....how's that for an objective fact?

 

Richard, my point about the imagery that Kanie transformed was not really about the "pictorials" at all, it rarely is with the serious artists. It was, as I wrote, the way he translated that painterly effect into iron. Not merely a rendition of a picture in metal but a complete absorption of the aesthetic of the original Chinese artists expression and a personal, material specific ( ie; iron ) , re-animation. This was Kanie's real genius.....just making beautiful surface textures is still in the realm of pure craft. Going beyond that is the work of art and to that end he developed his particular surface treatment to facilitate his own expression. ( as part of a more complex artistic expression ) This is what artists do....

[Curran]

Peter, as far as I know you own at least 2 Nobuiye... if not more. I think I like your most recent one the best, though the sukashi one is striking.

 

Okay, okay.... I get the deal with original Kaneiye. Can someone loan me one to study? This is half in jest, but I do envy Rich his chance to study both in hand at the same time.

 

Back to Doc John's question: comment on this tsuba.... What is it? A late Edo copy of a Kaneiye by perhaps a Aizu Shoami artisan or the likes? Doesn't quite seem Saga Kaneiye, and it isn't signed at all. Any further comment gents (und Dames)?

 

Curran

 

Ps. Milt, put Onions next to it and my dad would like one order...

Actually, I think I know from memory the tsuba you are referencing. I believe that is more Saga Kaneiye. More interesting than most I have seen.

 

Someone please loan me a Kaneiye! (repeat, this is a joke... but real Kaneiye are most welcome.)

[Brian]

Very educational, thanks folks. Have to bear in mind that we are talking about probably 2 of the 3 best iron tsuba makers (along with Umetada Myoju?) and pics don't tell the whole story.

I will look forward to seeing some of their work in Japan..maybe you guys will give me some lessons. Please keep the info and comments comming.

 

Regards,

Brian

[Ford Hallam]

bear in mind that we are talking about probably 2 of the 3 best iron tsuba makers

 

hey, Brian...let's not forget Shimizu Jingu, Hoan, Yamakichibei, some of the Myochin works etc, etc. :D

 

...and to add a little more in terms of reference material here's a link to 3 more very good Kanie tsuba and one by Yasuchika that illustrates his ability to model iron very sensitively also. Once you've clicked on the image you can see an even larger version by clicking on the little magnifying glass just above the top right corner of the image.

 

The thing I wanted to suggest when I said that this tsuba ( Doctor John's ) was too refined was that the first generation Kanie has a very distinctive, and soft, slightly grainy feel to his carving. Although at first glance it might appear to be less skilful it is in fact not that easy to create this sort of "artless" feeling in metal. I believe this was a conscious choice by Kanie as part of his expression of the sort of feeling that one gets from the original Sung dynasty painting that were his inspiration.

 

This is the sort of painting I'm talking about. This one is actually a Japanese National treasure and dates from the 13th cent. Painted by Liang Kai

[Ford Hallam]

sorry, John...the discussion isn't really saying all that much about your tsuba but here's another painting that I think would make a perfect Kanie design. This time by a Japanese, Muromachi period artist. I think the "Japanisation" of the Chinese originals is evident and further hints, to my eyes at least, the sort of adaptation an artist working in metal, like Kanie, might have found necessary.

 

 

regards, Ford

[Guido]

I hope no one minds if I go off topic even a little more, but being rather new to the Tsuba game, I wonder why Yasuchika is always listed as Kinkô even though he (mainly?) worked in iron; the same goes for Tsuba makers from Higo who occasionally worked in the-pretty-hard-stuff.

 

I'll probably slap my forehead when I get the answer, but "no pain, no gain!"

[Pete Klein]

Guido -- excellent question actually. I would say it is because unlike Kaneiye, Nobuie, Hoan etc. Yasuchika also made accessory fittings (kozuka, fuchi/kashira, menuki) and soft metal tsuba along with his iron work. Therefore, he was also a 'kinko', soft metal worker. It seems that as the Machibori movement grew the kodogu makers expanded their production to include what was once the product of the kanagu-shi -- sort of 'you can get it all done here en-suite' if you will.

 

Ford -- thanks for the great pics. You can really see the relationship between scroll / ink painting and the iron depiction by the Kaneiye family.

 

 

From the book, 'Yasuchika', K. Yoneno, 1964:

 

"Also we find two distinguished guard makers, Kane-ie and Nobu-ie. Kane-ie was the first man that used graphic designs beautifully with a few inlays of gold, silver, brass or copper, and it was he who established the artistic value of guards as industrial art objects, while Nobu-ie was an artist who improved the quality of guards called "armour-smith guards" and raised their value to the level of art objects for artistic appreciation".

[Pete Klein]

Curran -- the problem with shoki Kaneiye (Kaneie, Kane-ie -- I wish someone would determine the correct way of writing this in Roman ji) is that they were recognized very early on as masterworks by the Daimyo and placed into their collections. Therefore they were never available to the masses and actually didn't re-appear until Bakamatsu when many Daimyo were in financial hard times and selling off property. Nobuie actually were much more available all along and thus the many copies by different artists. Also, there really aren't that many first or second generation Kaneiye around so the chance of seeing one in hand is somewhat remote outside Japan where they are guarded jealously. BTW - they cost about as much as a home. IOW's -- you're out of luck. LOL

 

The consensus (if there is such a thing in this field) today is that the 'Saga' works were by the family (third generation?) after it moved to Saga region but the extremely high quality of the earliest masters was lost into production. Milt's tsuba is actually quite a good example.

[Bungo]

thanks , Ford, for pointing out the painting association........ hard not to with your " iron brush ".

 

Take it further from the thread as Guido did....... to me esp. the Ichijo ( or is it Ichigo ? )school kinko works are mostly styled after painting.

 

Pete, you can have " soup " now from the Soup Nazi........

 

milt

[Pete Klein]

Ja -- ist die gute Suppe! Viel Quecksilber!

[Rich T]

Great images Ford, very educational.

 

Rich

[Bugyotsuji]

Educational thread, gentlemen, for which many thanks. Kane.ie and Nobu.ie are now more clearly fixed in my mind. For the association with contemporary painting, Ford, you have certainly found excellent material. Spot on...

[Bungo]

Ford,

While it's " easy " to appreciate the esthetics of Ming/Yuan Dynasties masters' works translated into tsuba designs and such. I have " doubt " about this particular Japanese artist, namely Sesshu.

 

If one were to see his " typical " paintings translated onto tsuba.........my personal opinion ONLY , I'd venture to see " Aizu ( spelling? ) Shoami " !! Some may even call it low class re-pro ( I desist from suggesting national origin/maker of such repro ).........

 

 

what's your opinion on that ?

 

p.s. yes, you guess it, I am no fan of Sesshu ( even though he's VERY FAMOUS )

 

 

milt

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Milt,

 

I imagine by "typical" you mean his landscapes. I would probably tend to agree with you as I find them to be quite contrived or compared to the original Chinese inspiration. I agree also that I think they might well seem very "suspect" were they to be reinterpreted in iron. Having said that I think many of his other types of painting are absolutely wonderful and one in particular is urging me to attempt a similar aesthetic in metal. If I do have a go I'll be sure to let you all make your judgements

This is the painting I mean...

 

 

Guido,

 

In my opinion the term "kinko" to differentiate a particular group of workers from the early iron guard makes only really makes sense when applied to Goto and Mino work. Once we get into the Edo period the proliferation of the machibori pretty much makes such absolute classification a bit meaningless in strict material use terms.

 

The Hamano group in particular must get the prize for the best treatment of iron grounds that are then embellished with classic kinko iro-e work. The impression I have is that iron was simply treated as part of the palette and was utilised whenever its colours and textures were wanted. In exactly the same way as all the other metals and alloys were utilised.

 

With regard to Yasuchika though I get the general impression that he worked principally in soft metal but was free to use iron, as he did, as part of his palette. Certainly when I think of his work it is the soft metal that springs to mind but now I think about it he does seem to have been quite partial to iron too, although he always treated the metal as is a very delicate way, almost sensual in his touch. What he did do, that is notable, is develop some lovely textural grounds as alternatives to nanako. One story has it that he couldn't afford the costly services of nanako specialists so he improvised :D