Kantei Quizz N°7

[Guest reinhard]

In fact, in kantei, the answer is of no importance (IMHO). the only thing interesting is what leads you to this conclusion

 

I wouldn't say "of no importance", but basically you're right. Unfortunately nobody did reasonably explain, what brought him to a certain conclusion up to now. Starting with the sugata, we should try to pin down the period of manufacture; going to the steel texture next, we might find the location and finally the hamon can tell us the maker, or at least the school. Narrowing down possibilities on a systematic basis could be interesting and helpful for many (even fun, maybe). Necessary informations provided. Starting with midare-utsuri, jumping on the Bizen-train and dropping names is not.

 

reinhard

[Jean]

Jacques wrote :

 

It seems you have missed the last train Jean Mishina san has ceased kantei since two monthes (the last one was june kantei)

 

The last ones were available on the web (or were Saturday, I let you verify) and the resuts are given

[Brian]

..Unfortunately nobody did reasonably explain, what brought him to a certain conclusion up to now. Starting with the sugata, we should try to pin down the period of manufacture; going to the steel texture next, we might find the location and finally the hamon can tell us the maker, or at least the school. Narrowing down possibilities on a systematic basis could be interesting and helpful for many (even fun, maybe)...

 

Agree completely Reinhard. This would be a great way to approach these, and teach better. I do suggest we try this on the next ones, working systematically through the features and arriving at a conclusion. If we explain what we see, and what conclusion it comes to, we will be teaching novices (like myself) how to approach these and how to come to the final answer.

So we discuss the sugata, and see if we agree, then hada, hamon, hataraki etc. It is a good way to approach these.

 

Brian

[Brian]

Recent comments have made me re-look at this debate, and i thought I should post a bit more since I missed a few things myself that should be addressed.

Jean wrote:

One thing I have learnt from these experiences is that :

- being an expert does not imply at all being an educator.

- To be a scholar does not authorize anyone to decide what is educational or not for others, people being by essence individuals and what is good for someone is not automatically for others

I agree completely, and we have to let people decide for themselves how they want to learn and what they want to participate in. The usual procedure for doing kantei is a good one, and would be helpful as I stated above, but is by no means compulsory, and people should participate in any way they prefer. If you have a gut feeling, and just want to have a go at a smith, then that is fair enough. I really don't believe that novices will be confused by any of this. Most ppl here are fairly bright and I think we can give them the benefit of the doubt to see what the exercise involves and not base their entire Nihonto learning experience on what happens in these informal "kantei" exercises. It is not for us to tell people how they should learn. We are here to assist them, and have some fun at the same time. There are few rules on this forum for that very reason. Find your own path, ask for advice, and learn from some very knowledgeable collectors. Criticizing constantly does nothing to assist people with this however.

 

Lastly, I find that Reinhard's comments:

My advice to newbies: Stick to real kantei, where exemplary blades are discussed in a reasonable manner. Aoi-Art and its funny guessing game should be left to the "insiders". Lean back and enjoy the show.

are quite condescending and insulting if they are insinuating that anyone participating is an "insider" in any Aoi exercise.

That is a ridiculous statement, and I would appreciate some clarity. It is not a competition, there are no prizes, and I highly doubt anyone feels the need to boost their name. People who have been studying Nihonto for as many years as some here have, do get to a point where gut feel is a huge part of identification. If they wish to share their answers, I am very glad to have them. I won't allow vague hints or criticism to spoil what i am sure many other enjoy. Just a warning from now on...

 

Brian

[Guest reinhard]

Lastly, I find that Reinhard's comments:

My advice to newbies: Stick to real kantei, where exemplary blades are discussed in a reasonable manner. Aoi-Art and its funny guessing game should be left to the "insiders". Lean back and enjoy the show.

are quite condescending and insulting if they are insinuating that anyone participating is an "insider" in any Aoi exercise.

That is a ridiculous statement, and I would appreciate some clarity.

 

You want clarity? O.K. then. By "insiders" (sarcastic joke,BTW) I was referring to the usual suspects spreading bits of half-digested knowledge all over the place and confusing newbies and potential newcomers. This is what this board is always in danger of. Since it is more important to make NMB a cozy, stress-free playground for happy ignorants instead of lifting it to a serious level of discussion (newbies and simple questions included, of course) I just want to say:

 

Good luck and good riddance

 

reinhard

[Brian]

You want clarity? O.K. then. By "insiders" (sarcastic joke,BTW) I was referring to the usual suspects spreading bits of half-digested knowledge all over the place and confusing newbies and potential newcomers. This is what this board is always in danger of.

Everyone has the choice to either be helpful and try and correct incorrect wrong info and assist....or just criticize the whole process. Some unfortunately choose the latter. There is nothing constructive in keeping info to yourself instead of replying and giving your opinion.

Making people hesitate to post their guesses and reasoning is counter productive and not what we are encouraging.

 

Anyways, good luck and all the best to you.

 

Brian

[Jean]

ANSWER

 

Kagehide (Orikaeshi Tachi mei)

 

 

Special features: he jigane is quite nice with a lot of Utsuri appear.

From this point of view, the blade is Bizen school.

The Hamon is suguha style with many ashi.

Kissaki area is sansaku boshi.

The blade looks like Kobizen style except hamon.

It is quite difficult to judje this sword as Kagehide.

Because Kagehide didn’t make many swords.

The most famous Kagehide is Date Masamune’s sword which was called Kuronbogiri.

Kagehide was a son of Mitsutada.

Both of them, they made simple suguha hamon mainly.

Butthe blade was judjed mumei blades, active ichimonji style hamon.

I think most of Zaimei (with signature blade) swords were made very simple suguha hamon.

As we said, it is very difficult to answer correctly but we hope you will enjoy the texture of the jigane and elegant hamon

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

 

Kagehide was a son of Mitsutada.

Both of them, they made simple suguha hamon mainly.

I think most of Zaimei (with signature blade) swords were made very simple suguha hamon.

[Jean]

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/sale/08087.html

[Curran]

I would not have guessed this as Kagehide work. Kagehide work while quiet and a bit lacking in distinction, is still a pretty and tight piece of workmanship. Either this Aoi Arts blade is tired, crudely polished, or otherwise not right. While I would associate the jigane with Oei Bizen line of work, I would have thought it Bizen from early Nambokchu and possibley by a lesser 2nd or arguably 3rd tier smith.

 

Fred has a nice Kagehide up:

http://www.nihonto.com/kagehide.html

 

While Kagehide is sort of second tier Bizen smith, I find it very calm and skillfull. The one on Aoi Arts is a mess. I think this is a Juyo paper for the signature. Not the cleanest example for kantei.

 

Curran

[nagamaki - Franco]

Concurr entirely with Curran's sentiment here. This is the problem with mixing marketing and kantei, but I'm not trying to reopen that discussion as the pitfalls are already known. Take a good look at Fred's Kagehide and the oshigata posted, day and night difference!

[Brian]

Can't argue with any of that

If anything, it serves to show that Kantei is a difficult exercise, and even for experts it must be a heck of an exercise. Even in hand, I am sure this one would not easily have pointed to the smith. Once again, it shows that smiths didn't always work in a "cookie cutter" standard style, polish can alter perceptions and schools varied occasionally. Even with papers, not every sword shows all the traits of the school mentioned. Glad I am not on the shinsa team :lol:

No wonder so many of you lean towards tsuba. (no, definitely not easy either)

 

Brian

[Jean]

Our western tastes are not the same as our Japanese friends'ones.

 

Tanobe sensei's sayagaki ends by "chin chin cho cho" .... I remember Darcy saying once that he has brought several swords to Tanobe sensei's appreciation and was very surprised to see that the blade which draws his attention was the less spectacular with some kizu ...

 

Now the question is who is going to pay that price for a very rare mei belonging to the younger brother of "the Mitsutada" - BTW - the same for painting .

[Darcy]

Reiterating my comments on the kizu stuff... I have found that many lovers of swords (I am inclined to say "true" but that's kind of pejorative to the rest of everyone) are able to look past the current condition to what things once were.

 

This image is maybe more descriptive to westerners of the experience:

 

One day as a car lover you walk into a barn and see this:

 

 

And your mouth drops. You can fill up the tires and then it is this:

 

 

Rusty, dull paint, behind velvet ropes with people gawping.

 

That is the old sword. It doesn't *need* to be restored because in your mind's eye you can see this:

 

 

In a way, the restoration and re-building of it loses something. If you can look at the first and second images and in your mind's eye you see the third image, then you're someone who "gets" it. You don't need the third one. Tanobe sensei didn't need the swords to be in the third state, he could see it.

 

*Anyone* can identify with the third one as art object, but it's the guys who really dig cars who are going to flip out even if it's not.

 

1938 Bugatti by the way. Found in a barn, sold in above unrestored condition for $850,000.