Kantei For Five Tsuba

[kissakai]

Comments would be nice but maybe not likely

I have other papered tsuba I could post they are much easier

[Marius]

It seems to me that #1 as Ko Umetada is most peculiar and highly uncharacteristic. 

 

 

Arnold, persuade Grev to wait for two years, submit it again and that tsuba will come back as ko-Shoami. Or Sado 

[Jussi Ekholm]

I might have worded that bit foolishly. I was meaning that for me the fact that the tsuba came from collections of Sasano & Kremers and if Eckhard authenticated it at Ashmolean event these combined with NBTHK papers would give it a very strong provenance in my opinion. Of course the exact year it was made will probably always be up for debate.

 

I was surprised at n.5 too. However I think it is not always black & white and someone is right and other one is wrong. I think Darcy has written a very good piece regarding how NBTHK attributions are not set in stone and should not be taken as absolute facts. NBTHK shinsa panel just offers one of the best opinions in the world. Sure some things are very stereotypical and attributions are easy to accept (it does help a lot if you are agreeing/hoping for certain attribution). However there are plenty of things that can be either or, and without a working time machine we will never know for sure. Attributions by experts are the best possible method of authentication, and of course it is completely possible that different experts see things differently.

[kissakai]

I understood your previous post and not foolish.

As you say no one can know it all but I think about how many tsuba have they have seen

In a perfect world you would be abble to question an attribution with your supplementary evidence that could be analysed by the shinsa team but how long and complicated that could be

It was possibly a bit strong to say it was from the Sasano collection but it was owned to Eckhard and it was his opinion on the attribution

So easy to say what we believe than the absolute truth as we all like to own tsuba that is special

[kissakai]

Does anyone have any more info about Naokatsu?

One post on the NMB and one other on the internet

I'll go through my books again but I can't remember reading about this smith

[kissakai]

Synopsis

 

 

No 1 2 3 4 5 Decription T210  "Six ken" T219  "Waterwheel" T220   "Flower and leaves" T238   "Abstract" T287.  “Daikon and steam” Attribution ko Umetada Den Naokatsu Tosho Akasaka Shoami (No one got this) NMB ko Umetada x1 .Naokatsu x 3 Tosho Edo x 1 Akasaka x 4 Ko Tosho x 2 ko Shoami x 2 Naoaki x 1 ko Tosho x 4 kōdai Akasaka Tosho Edo x 2 Saotomi x 1 Hōan x 1   Akao Sado x 1 Den Kanayama x 1       Katchūshi x 1         Myōchin x 1         Owari x 1

 

Only just realised no one got No 5 which is strange as the mantra is if you are unsure say Shoami

Anyone think that the Shinsa team may have made a mistake?

That's all from me until I get the papers and I'll add these to the thread

 

 

Thanks for taking part

Grev

 

Edit to add the table in a better format

 

 

 

[Curran]

When Grev told me about the Ko-Umetada call, I was very surprised.

   I've only seen that a few times. I've also only seen Ko-Myochin two or three times.

 

I agree with some that another time or two through shinsa would probably yield the a more conservative Ko-shoami call.

It is interesting a judge or two felt strongly enough to stick their neck out and argue for the Ko-Umetada call.

 

In most of the books I currently have accessible, there isn't much on English that gives a feel for why the decision went this way.

Can anyone recommend a text where there is more discussion on Ko-Umetada, or do we need to bring in the big brain [aka. Mr. Sesko] for some pointers into a Japanese text that might be educational in this area?

 

 

I've recently been re-reading several texts on the various thoughts of the vague "ko-kinko" terminology and been reminded by Torigoye-sensei's writing to remember there were small groups working in each area- ie. the early Mino Goto vs the ko-Goto not being the same thing... and how the Mino-Goto are believed to have mixed with tachikanagushi to evolve the Ko-Mino style. Since it is held that the ko-Goto didn't make tsuba, when you have a very goto like tsuba that predates the first supposed Goto tsuba.... even if they are of Mino Goto early manufacture, you cannot say "Ko-Goto" because that is indicative of a specific line of early Goto.

     The use of 'Ko' can be almost as two edged as the use of 'Den'.  With early Mino-goto stuff, it probably means it gets lost into the "Ko-kinko" classification not to confuse it with Ko-Goto. In the Ko-Goto case, it is very specific reference. Ko-Shoami is a bit vague, but the Ko-Myochin and Ko-Umedata calls seem to be rather specific.

      I doubt I will ever see the Ko-Saotome call, but maybe it exists.

[Vermithrax16]

Grev,

Which shinsa were these submitted for? April? Just curious.

[kissakai]

I'm not sure what you mean so these are the details I know

Submitted in Japan

NBTHK - Hozon

Results only in July so submitted around May. Should get papers around October

[Vermithrax16]

Grev,

 

http://www.nbthk-ab.org/Shinsa.html

 

Unless there was a change, it was probably April.

[kissakai]

Hi Jeremiah

I would say it was definitely the April shinsa