Mansyu Osafune Norimitsu???

[sencho]

備州

 

is there any reason why Aoi Art referred these as "MANSYU"??

 

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/tanto/06435.html

 

cheers!

[John A Stuart]

Hi Skipper, Well, the only place I know is Manshuin in Kyoto but that can't be right. I can't find any shumei form of this except Bizen/ Bitchu/ Bingo. Funny aside though. If you ignore the kanji the word 'manshu' means 'high pressure salesmanship'. :lol: John

 

Oh. I change my mind. I think this may also be the shumei for Manchuria or Manchukuo. John

[sencho]

heh heh heh.....

 

...but the kanji on the tanto, to me, is clearly Bishu Osafune Norimitsu...

 

:?

 

I am having trouble reading the year on the date inscription too

[John A Stuart]

Yes, that is how I would read it. Manshu I don't get at all unless some old reading. Even at 4x Icant read the nengo but it looks to use Jikkan/ Junishi system. John

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

I think that the nengo is Kyotoku 享禄 ni (1453) but i'm not sure :?

[sencho]

Hi Jaques....

 

Yes... or KYOROKU 1528-1532...

 

Strange that Aoi also call this a late Edo blade.... I guess they assume that it is a later gimei blade with a nengo to boot....

 

However I wonder if it is just one of the later muromachi period lesser Norimitsu... rather than a necessarily gimei.... I have a Tensho wakazashi with a similar mei....

 

BTW my wak could well be gimei too, but there is not much point in faking a lesser Norimitsu with date to match!!! If you wanted to fake a mei I would assume the faker would make it worth his while and fake the big guy!!

 

Cheers

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Osafune Norimitsu was a great smith

 

Look at this blade :D

 

http://japantrip.tripod.com/nodachi/norimitsu.html

[John A Stuart]

Good eyes guys, when I look at it now I see how it could be that. John

[Grey Doffin]

It isn't necessarily true that only the great names get faked. I've seen more than a few WWII era swords with signatures that purport to be of some obscure smith from earlier in Shinto. If you fake a famous smith you have to do a good job and your customer has only to look at a book to find you out. If you fake someone nobody ever included in a book you might get away with it.

Grey

[Bungo]

" If you wanted to fake a mei I would assume the faker would make it worth his while and fake the big guy!! "

 

not necessarily, I have seen " gimei " minor Mino smiths AND Bungo ( now that's NO respect !! ) too !!

 

it's like people making copies of five dollar bills and pass them at 7-Eleven

 

milt the flying ronin

[sencho]

Thanks Grey and :lol: thanks Milt,

 

So is there anything obvious about this blade that would suggest to Aoi and have them mention that it was made in the late Edo period..... or would it take further study with blade in hand...?

 

Jacques.... a big old water trough needed to dunk that in!!! Can you imagine having to handle that during forging!!??

 

Cheers

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Handle this blade during Forging? OOHHH NOOO!!! Very difficult to polish too

 

Concerning the age of this blade the patina of the nakago seems artificial and yasurime are clearly visible in the upper part of the nakago but not under

[Guest reinhard]

It's a simple translation error on the English homepage of Aoi-Art. Looking at the same tanto on the Japanese page, you will see, that the mei is given as:

Bishu Osafune NORIMITSU, dated Kyotoku ni nen (1453) and that the mei is considered to be gimei. The blade, according to Aoi-Art, can be dated at the end of the Edo-period, judged from its workmanship. No need to fuzz about the mei or any of the NORIMITSU smith in this case.

 

Grey is right, by the way. I've come across many faked signatures of insignificant smiths, whose only purpose seemed to be to add any signature at all to a blade. Among them NORIMITSU of Bizen is very frequent. Though there is a famous sword (Juyo bunkazai) by one of the NORIMITSU smith, the main bulk of swords with this signature is without any particular qualities.

 

reinhard

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Though there is a famous sword (Juyo bunkazai) by one of the NORIMITSU smith

 

If i'm not wrong, the Norimitsu Nodachi is Kokuho :D

[Guido]

The Ōdachi linked in this thread - the so-called "Kibitsu-maru 吉備津丸" - was polished by Fujishiro Okisato 藤代興里 in 平成5年 (Heisei 5), and is depicted in his series "MEITŌ ZUKAN 名刀図鑑". It dosn't have a government classification per se, but is a Jūyō-Bunkazai of Okayama-ken.

 

In any case, it wasn't made by the smith (or, rather, the lineage of smiths) discussed in this thread, Norimitsu 則光. It was made by Norimitsu 法光, also called "Hō no Norimutsu 法の法光" because of the different first character.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

An hell of a work...

Thanks for the picture Guido.

I'm downloading it.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Thanks for the clarification Guido.

 

It is true that Sue-Bizen is hard about lineage of smiths. Some of names were used for several generations and it was not infrequent to see two smiths working at the same time with the same name.

 

Perhaps it is this one who forged the Kibitsu-maru

 

 

 

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