possible late kamakura tachi

[1tallsword]

Hey folks. I purchased this blade and thought i might share for your comments and enjoyment. very elegant long blade. 29 inch nagasa. o-suriage, nakago is 7 inches. motokasane is 7/32 of an inch and motohaba is 1 1/8 inches. kissaki is very small and elegant. sori is deep and if you can picture the full length blade would have been about 35 inches and sori is in the middle towards back. this is not the same blade i posted a couple weeks ago. comments welcome, your opinions on school and age is most welcome.im leaning towards 1330-1370 possible. cheers.

[1tallsword]

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[1tallsword]

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[1tallsword]

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[cabowen]

Nice! Kamakura seems like a good bet...Yamato perhaps....One thing that puzzles me though is the color and the way the sabi on the nakago ends in a neat line...

[Surfson]

I found the old thread on this blade. Search for "the one that got away" or maybe this link will work. Cheers, Bob

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=20261

[1tallsword]

yes that is the blade. I didnt post the link because i wanted a fresh look at it. and now that i have it in hand i can answer any questions board members might have.after holding it in hand I was too leaning towards yamato as chris mentioned. although the old papers say uda school i will be sending this one for shinsa. when inspected in hand there is boshi on both sides, very thin on one side but there. now to answer chris, the sabi color is darker in hand and you can thank my camera flash for it appearing red. in hand its not so straight,some small spots are seen not caught by camera and flash washes out. but i do know what you mean, possibly done when polished? if thats the area you are talking about where rust begins on nakago.

[Jussi Ekholm]

I am a sucker for deep sori, and I like that blade in overall too. There seems to be lots of interesting activity going on there too, nice.

[Jacques]

Suriage ? I dont' think so.

 

 

 

This + the start of the habuchi don't speak in favor of a suriage nakago

[cabowen]

So you are saying that the half mekugi-ana at the nakago-jiri was simply added to make it appear as if the blade is suriage?

 

Personally, I don't think any of the photos shows the habuchi clear enough at the machi to form any opinions. One needs to see the blade in hand, at the right angle to the light to see the true habuchi and how it ends under the kesho.

 

Given the right circumstances, is possible for a skilled craftsman to shorten a blade so that the hamon runs off the blade, rather than simply fades away. Thus, I don't think this is conclusive proof regardless...

[drbvac]

I would think if shortened at all, the way the hamon runs off the blade on the nakago where it does, - it wasn't shortened by more than 1/2 to an inch - could it have been cut right through a menuki for the tachi mounts?

 

Regardless - nice - can ship it to me at my address on the site and I can look at it "in hand" as suggested

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

 

Given the right circumstances, is possible for a skilled craftsman to shorten a blade so that the hamon runs off the blade,

 

No, clearly no, but you are free to believe what you want.

 

other side :

 

[1tallsword]

thank you all who have tuned in. my pics are not the best and sorry for that. I do believe this was a 14th century tachi, no question. . i have held it and examined it in hand . several simple things i notice when held in hand without getting into great detail... the last couple inches of the nakago has a deeper older darker rust patina than the rest of the nakago. nie crystals do extend past the ha- machi. Im no expert and don't have near as many posts some of you folks do, but one thing i can confirm ...chris is right when he states a good smith can make a hamon run off then fade away. I have spent a lot of money on literature and spent a lot of time in some very high end collections looking over blades and being schooled.I have seen several examples of such, this is fact and a known one. I will also be showing this blade to mr. Fred Fimio for a second in hand opinion and will keep you folks posted. I have spent some time with fred and he has shown me some great swords and books. some more pics, not the best but may help.

[1tallsword]

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[cabowen]

Hi,

 

 

Given the right circumstances, is possible for a skilled craftsman to shorten a blade so that the hamon runs off the blade,

 

No, clearly no, but you are free to believe what you want.

 

other side :

 

 

 

 

Have you never seen a suriage sword with the hamon running down into the nakago? Clearly it is possible to cut the ha without losing the hamon.

 

I have seen it done a few times so I know it is possible. It is easier with older koto blades as many have softer ha. A file at Rc 64-65 will cut the ha of a koto blade at Rc 55-58. Certain stones would also cut the ha, though they would take a lot longer than a file. These days smiths have access to diamond files and they work very well to cut through the ha....as does a diamond wheel on a dremel....

 

Many, maybe most, were shortened by first heating the ha a bit to soften it, then cutting it. Depending on the skill of the person doing it, they could reduce the hardness without losing all the martensite (this is called tempering) if not heated too long or too much. Many were simply heated without a lot of care, softened greatly, and then cut much easier. These will have the hamon simply fade away without the habuchi running off the edge.

 

Not sure what you are trying to prove with your pictures but you still haven't said whether or not the half hole at the end of the nakago was purposely made to look like it was cut off or not....

 

If you have something of substance to add to the conversation, by all means speak your mind. Your little pictures and dodges aren't really contributing anything useful.

[Jacques]

Maybe i was not clear enough, i will go further.

 

 

 

Red line shows the right way of the hamon on a suriage blade

 

White line shows ubu nakago, it's impossible for a suriage machi-okuri nakago. Some time you can see a hadori which gives this appearance but it's not habuchi, it's only cosmetic.

 

[Jacques]

Nakago ha is too thick for a suriage sword :

 

 

 

Nakago jiri seems to symetrical that's also against a suriage nakago.

 

 

I have seen it done a few times so I know it is possible.

 

Waouh? Really ? So you will describe us the whole process

 

I must add that i'm in total agreement with one Guido's sentence, sentence which was unfortunately quickly deleted by Brian.

[Jacques]

A suriage sword in nice sashikomi polish that i own hamon goes straight towards the nakago

 

[cabowen]

Like this:

 

or this:

 

 

If you read my initial comments, I said:

 

Given the right circumstances, is possible for a skilled craftsman to shorten a blade so that the hamon runs off the blade, rather than simply fades away.

 

Not all hamon are of the right shape for this to be possible. But some certainly are....

 

I also said:

 

Personally, I don't think any of the photos shows the habuchi clear enough at the machi to form any opinions. One needs to see the blade in hand, at the right angle to the light to see the true habuchi and how it ends under the kesho.

 

Meaning, I can't say for sure what the situation is with this blade. I am speaking of possibilities, which is about all you can do from the photos.

 

I have seen suriage and o-suriage blades with the hamon continuing under the sabi into the nakago a fair distance and not fading away as yours does, which means the hamachi was cut into the hamon and the ha filed down without heat (or enough heat to remove the hamon), Perhaps you have never seen this in your books. It doesn't photo well....Another example of the importance of seeing many swords in hand. Here:

 

 

And here:

 

 

Here is an example where the photos would appear to show the hamon running off the blade as the op's blade seems to do, but when looking at the blade at the right angle, you can see the habuchi breaks just before the hamachi; the hamon does not appear to simply fade away... (http://www.nihonto.ca/shizu-3/):

 

 

And here is an example (Juyo Nobuhide) with a rather symmetrical lower mekugi-ana that would be very similar in location to that on the op's blade if cut thru:

 

 

And here is yet another example with a hamon continuing into the nakago and with a lower mekugi-ana that is symmetrical...

 

 

I don't find your argument compelling.

[Brian]

Jacques,

Your points are valid and obvious to most collectors. But Chris's point that the hamon is far from clear in the pics, is just as true. The hamon could be continuing down and subject to the pictured variations. We just cannot tell for sure without that area being clearly pictured and in proper polish.

I don't know how you can make that call from the pics presented.

 

Brian

[drbvac]

Depending on the actual appearance in hand one of you is correct but there is probably no doubt that either theory is just as possible and credible - thanks for the explanations, diagrams and photos = interesting and enlightening - especially for those of us that NEVER get to see many blades in hand other than the ones we buy !!

[Jacques]

Brian,

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mister Bowen

 

Can you give the link of your last example ?

 

I asked you a description of a process, not a simple drawing

[cabowen]

Again, these photos do not show the habuchi distinctly. And, as I have shown, it is possible for the hamon to run off the blade when suriage.

 

As for process, there are several ways to shorten the blade. I mentioned several already. The fact that I have produced examples which clearly show the hamon continuing into the nakago is conclusive proof that it can be done-and that is the point. Talk to some swordsmiths, spend time in their forges if you wish to learn more about the mechanics.

 

I do not have the link handy to my last example. I found it using google and searching Japanese sites.

 

I have spent enough time already on this and have made my point. Knowing your predilection to grab at anything and everything as you go under, I won't be wasting any more time arguing the obvious with you. Your time might be better spent looking at swords in hand and furthering your own education.

 

TIme to put you back on my ignore list....

[1tallsword]

thank you to all that have expressed their opinions. I wish I could add something of importance to this conversation that has not been addressed already. As mentioned my pictures are not the best, my flash tends to highlight brightly the strong parts of the hamon and wash out the faint hard to see areas,for that i apologize. this has been a very good thread for learning. I can tell you in hand i can see hamon past the ha-machi. the right side is harder than the left, when tilted at angle with light hitting it the right way , this is what i see. as mentioned I will be showing this sword next weekend (or sooner) to mr. fimio for his opinion. If anyone is in my area (Barrie, ontario canada) and would like to see it in hand feel free to message me, no problem. cheers.

[1tallsword]

to Mr. Bowen. thank you for all your time and efforts,pictures,explanations,drawings ect.. on this post your knowledge and efforts have not gone unnoticed. thank you to everyone else as well that has taken there time to tune in, cheers

[cabowen]

You are most welcome....Please keep us in the loop as you gather further intel on this sword....

 

And, btw, "Chris" will do just fine.....

[Jacques]

Mister Bowen

 

it is possible for the hamon to run off the blade when suriage.

 

Not with this kind of hamon and you forget all the other points. And i don't speak about the patina which is questionnable and the red rust which shows that sword is not so old.

 

Again, these photos do not show the habuchi distinctly

 

Same for yours.

 

As said you are free to believe what you want but it is not a proof.

[Darcy]

Chris is right in this case.

 

Jacques is wrong (again, and as usual), and has very little to bring to this board other than the URL to his own board.

[Brian]

Back to Siberia for you Jacques, I just cannot imagine anything good coming from allowing you to participate.

Offending comments from others deleted and consider this a serious warning about snide and underhanded swipes at members here. I wil not tolerate this, and will rather lose members than tolerate personal attacks or insults.

 

Brian

[Stephen]