Tanto signed Yoshisuke

[Martin]

Hi all,

 

Influenced by the great Kantei and Signature discussions we had lately, I am trying to find out who (i.e. which generation of Yoshisuke) made the below Tanto. It is papered to Shimada Yoshisuke but does not mention a certain generation.

I am really far away from judging signatures but I would tend to say, that it is made by the Daiei (~1521) Yoshisuke.

This at least is what I can gain from the sources I have access to.

 

I already discussed this with Ludolf (thanks again for your time !) and even with his sources it seems VERY difficult to pinpoint a certain smith...

Maybe some of you have any ideas or sources that may provide me with some helpful information.

 

Nagasa: 33.6 cm

Sori: none

Motohaba: 2.73 cm

Motokasane: 0.795 cm

Mune: Mitsumune

Jitetsu: Itame Hada

Hamon: Niedeki Gunome Midare

Yasurimei: Katte-Sagari (or maybe Kiri?)

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

Many thanks,

[Jean]

Hi Martin,

 

I'll try to see what I can find in the Nihonto Zuikan tonight.

 

I am very surprised by the 2 Oshigata of the second Yoshisuke mei, they are so different .....

 

I am not sure that your tanto meï fits either oshigata .....

[Martin]

I am very surprised by the 2 Oshigata of the second Yoshisuke mei, they are so different .....

 

Hi Jean,

 

I am surprised too. Maybe there are some translation errors :? .

Fujishiro only mentions two Shimada Yoshisuke and calls the Daiei Yoshisuke the first generation.

 

Somehow I have the impression that each Yoshisuke signature I see (even if it´s from the same generation) looks different... But that may only be due to my limited library (Fujishiro, Yoshikawa Sue Koto, Nihonto Koza).

[Jean]

Martin,

 

It is the 3rd Genaration (1521)

 

here is a very usefull link when you have not at hand your books. It gives the main smiths with province - date .... and the entry for Hawley, Fujishiro ..

 

http://www.sho-shin.com/smithsy.htm

[Jean]

It seems also that all sources do not agree neither on the number of Yoshisuke having existed nor on their dates.

 

For Fujishiro for example :

 

 

YOSHISUKE SHIMADA (1ST) is listed has being the Daiei

 

YOSHISUKE SHIMADA NIDAI [KÔJI 1555 SURUGA] SUEKOTÔ CHÛJÔSAKU

 

Now if you take the Toko Taikan, first generation is Given Ko-Sho (1455)

 

I don't know why but suddenly I feel very tired ......... :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Martin]

Jean,

 

already knew the Sho-Shin pages. Very useful information indeed - and lots of work that Robert put in to it.

As for the generation I also got fed up because the sources don´t seem to match. Sometimes the Daiei Yoshisuke is the first, then second or third generation

 

But maybe it´s because there aren´t that many pieces clearly attributable to a certain generation ?

 

best,

[Jean]

Hi Martin,

 

Another one from the Nihonto Zuikan, Perhaps Koichi shall be able to give you a feed back on the Japanese text

 

Sorry but there is an ana on the mei

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Some more info from another source, the Koza (thanks to AFU, sorry for the poor picture) to support the 3 generations matter :

 

 

SURUGA NO KUNI 駿河国

Shida-gun Shimada-shi of this kuni is a town on the left bank of the Ôigawa (Ôi River), and here a

tôkô group founded by SHIMADA YOSHISUKE 島田義助 prospered. SURUGA 駿河 is a place

which has deep relationships with the great clans of the Imagawa, Takeda, and Tokugawa. In the late Muromachi Jidai, there was especially vigorous activity shown by these three, but a story can be seen in

the SUN TÔ ZU KAN 駿遠豆鑑 (SURUGA 駿河, TÔTÔMI 遠江, and IZU 伊豆 Taikan) which says that YOSHISUKE 義助 obtained the favor of Imagawa, and it is said that the YOSHI 義 of YOSHISUKE 義助 is a ji that he received from the name of IMAGAWA YOSHITADA 今川義忠.

I think this is a story which should be believed. At one time a long time ago there was a tendency to overlook the founder of this YOSHISUKE KE 義助家, however, in actuality, he is thought to be a smith in his prime of sword making around KÔSHÔ 康正 (1455-1457). Even if he is moved back

earlier, this would probably be to around EIKYÔ 永享 (1429-1441). This is the jidai assumed according to common knowledge of sword observation.

A pamphlet was published in October 1962 by sword lover Matsushita Masahika (or Shôji) Shi of Shizuoka-ken entitled "Shizuoka Meitô Monogatari" (Tales of Famous Swords of Shizuoka). Present in this is detailed local research in regard to YOSHISUKE 義助 and his extended family. As for the investigation of the tôko, kinkô, and tsubakô of each locale, these had been done for some time by local people, and fulfills the greatest wishes of this writer. I would ask for anyone who desires the details to please consult this same pamphlet.

According to that pamphlet, the family name of the YOSHISUKE KE 義助家 was GOJÔ 五条 , and the Myôô-Yama Chôtoku-Ji is their family temple. It is said that this temple came to moved from Shimada-chô Go-chome around 1912, an since the old tomb markers were naturally renovated, it is probably difficult to hope for accuracy, but it seems that there are people who are doing further research locally.

 

…OMISSIS…

 

KEIZU OF SHIMADA YOSHISUKE KEI

 

YOSHISUKE 義助: Around KÔSHÔ 康正 (1455-1457). [TN]

YOSHISUKE 義助: Around EISHÔ 永正 (1504-1521).

YOSHISUKE 義助: Around TENMON 天文 (1532-1535).

HIROSUKE 広助: Around KÔJI 弘治 (1555-1558).

KUNISUKE 国助: Around TENSHÔ 天正 (1573-1592).

TERUYOSHI 輝吉: Around KÔJI 弘治 (1555-1558). He also inscribed HIROSUKE 広助.

TERUSUKE 輝助: No remarks.

SUKEMITSU 助光: No remarks.

 

YARI

Mei: YOSHISUKE SAKU

(OTEGINE NO YARI お手杵の槍)

Length: 4 shaku 6 sun (about 139.4 cm)

 

槍 銘 義 助 作

 

 

[Martin]

Jean & Carlo,

 

thanks for your help so far.

It seems to be still quite a challenge to attribute that Mei...

Especially the first Kanji seems to be very narrow and would (having only these Oshigata) best fit to the Fujishiro Shodai example.

 

I would be interested in the opinion of a native speaker/writer if there could be such difference in the Mei being from the same generation.

 

Ludolf also pointed out that it could be a Daimei for one of the masters.

But I have no knowledge about the abundance of Daimei in this school or era.

 

Maybe - if there is no similarity in the Mei - the style of workmanship could lead to a certain generation

 

cheers,

[Nobody]

The following excerpt could be one conclusion for this issue. The partial translation is for the page of the Nihonto Zuikan posted by Jean.

 

Yoshisuke, Meio (明応: 1492-) :

............ Although there is a theory saying that the first and second strokes of the character “義†were chiseled as they looked like claws of a crab by older generations, it is difficult to distinguish a specific generation by its mei as well as Muramasa. This Yoshisuke is also said that this might be made after Tenbun (天文; 1532-).

[Ludolf Richter]

As I already have told Martin with a personal message,Hawley was totally wrong.I guess,a combination of YOS 1673 and YOS 1674 seems to be the Shodai,while the Nidai is definitely YOS 1668,who was asked by the Hojo to Sagami,where he worked at Odawara.He is also called Odawara Soshu Yoshisuke.He worked in different styles,but seemed to have preferred the Mino Den.The Sandai is probably Hawley's YOS 1675 (and the 4th gen.YOS 1676).My theory with a possible Daimei results from the fact,that the NBTHK people couldn't attach the Mei to one of the above masters.They should however have said e.g.,this Tanto was not made by the Shodai and Nidai (because their styles are quite unique :look at the pics/oshigata and the descriptions in NBTK- Yoshu to Zuroku,vol.I and III).Ludolf

[Martin]

Thanks Koichi-San and Ludolf-San :D

 

the excerpt you posted about the "crab-claws" is very interesting.

But once again: not a rule... I think there is nothing more certain in Nihonto than exceptions :D

 

So maybe the Mei on my Tanto is from a more peaceful era as the claws are not that aggressively shown :lol:

 

What do you think about the workmanship (Jitetsu, Hamon, length, Sugata). Does maybe this allow a certain attribution? This looks very much like Soshu to me.

 

cheers,

[Jean]

Thanks a lot Koichi for the translation, it is very interesting.

 

A lot of schools (Mino, Enju, Bizen ....) had swordsmiths working under the same name and are (even if signed) seldom kanteied to a specific smith in the lineage (Sukesada, Kanefusa ...).

 

This is a sunobi tanto indicating perhaps post 1550 ans it has a Soshu flavour (Mitsumune)

[JakeNYC]

On 8/18/2007 at 5:33 AM, Nobody said:

The following excerpt could be one conclusion for this issue. The partial translation is for the page of the Nihonto Zuikan posted by Jean.

 

Yoshisuke, Meio (明応: 1492-) :

............ Although there is a theory saying that the first and second strokes of the character “義†were chiseled as they looked like claws of a crab by older generations, it is difficult to distinguish a specific generation by its mei as well as Muramasa. This Yoshisuke is also said that this might be made after Tenbun (天文; 1532-).

Whose theory? Do we have a source for that? Makes total sense, just checking.

[Nobody]

1 hour ago, JakeNYC said:

Whose theory? Do we have a source for that? Makes total sense, just checking.

 

That is not stated explicitly on the posted page from Nihonto Zuikan.