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How to identify a Nihonto in bad condition from a fake?


peluche399

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My first post, Ive read quite a bit here and have read quite a bit in general but I am always looking to learn as much as possible.

 

So some Nihonto are clear, you know it when you see it!

 

If I look at this, there is certainly no question, everything is there (and its beautiful).

http://www.nihonto.com/AraIchi.html

 

But some arent so clear.

 

I have a sword which I would say is almost certainly a fake, but could it simply be in very bad condition. Sadly I cant take pictures, as the sword is currently at my father's home but I will give you a run down.

 

My thinking is that it could be possible that this sword was a real sword, nothing of tremendous value, that had been found rusted beyond hope and was filed down and sharpened by a mentally handicapped ape with no arms.

 

Why I think it COULD be real:

-No obvious etching or fake hada

-shape (zori etc) is mostly there, kissaki is somewhat well formed

-polish is awful, uneven and doesnt allow for any of the activity of the blade to be seen (if there was any). It is possible an amateur without appropriate tools tried to bring the blade back into polish. Niku is very very thin making me think perhaps it was very badly rusted and a lot of material was removed to get rid of the rust.

 

Why its probably fake:

-Niku is probably far too thin

-overall width of the blade (ha to mune, i forget the term) is too narrow

-koshirae are bizarre, cobbled together and mostly terrible. Seems likely Tsuka and saya were from another sword. Tsuka wrap was hilariously wrong (like really, it made you laugh).

-blade is uneven as in small variations in the edge, shinogi and surfaces which should be perfectly straight and even. Is this possibly the result of a terrible polish?

-kissaki seems too short

 

 

So, Im not trying to make an argument that I found a bottom dollar treasure, I would be nearly certain that it is a poor chinese fake. However, nothing I can point to says to me "this shows that it is absolutely a fake". More importantly, if in a situation like this where the polish is terrible (or say it is badly rusted), how can one tell nihonto in terrible condition from a fake? Perhaps there are signs one look for? Its hard to find examples of Nihonto in bad condition, only ones in fairly good condition.

 

Just a learning exercise, thank you all!

 

Andres G.

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It's usually all in the nakago....

 

And experience.

 

Brian

 

Lightning response :lol:

 

Certainly, experience is a huge amount of it. I can already spot issues with fakes much more easily than I once could.

 

As for Nakago, my example may again be a good one for the "borderline case". There is a Mei, I do not recall the name of the smith but it was dated to 1929 if memory serves. There are yasurime. There is some rust but the sword is not tremendously old, nor do I have the skill level to accurately identify rust.

 

What else do you look for?

 

Andres G.

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Andres,

 

Here is a link at the top of the page

 

http://jssus.org/nkp/fake_japanese_swords.html

 

Regards,

Hoanh

 

Thank you Hoanh, I had seen that little guide long before I ever even knew about this forum! (as a hilarious side note related to those, I bought a sword when I was in my early teens...it had a hamon which was actualy stamped onto the blade! Thats right, it was a 3D hamon :lol: )

 

Unfortunately, not all cases are as clear cut as those examples (or my stamped hamon example). In the case of my sword, none of the clear tell-tale signs of a fake are there. Of course, it does not look like the examples of Nihonto provided either but nor would a nihonto in poor polish, in a functional polish or which was badly rusted.

 

Perhaps I should rephrase my question from another point of view. What do you look for in a sword which is badly in need of a new polish? Examples of swords out of polish would be tremendously helpful if anyone knows where to find some.

 

Andres G.

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Andres,

 

Hypothetically speaking, if a sword is so out of polish and rusty that one cannot see any part of the hamon or hada, then I would look at the following:

 

1. Nakago - this is the point Brian made: shape, yasurime (filing pattern), patina, nakagojiri (the end of the nakago), shinogi ji in the nakago, mei if present (chiseled versus dremmel tool, syntax).

2. Kissaki, especially the fukura and yokote.

3. Shinogi ji - crisp line or rounded?

4. Overall shape of the sword.

5. Habaki if present.

6. The way the itomaki is done, if the tsuka comes with the sword.

 

I am sure there are more telltale signs, but this is off the top of my head.

 

Regards,

Hoanh

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Hi Andres,

We need to see pictures. Once we do there's a 90 some percent chance that most of us will know immediately what you have. The other few percent chance we'll argue a bit whether it is a fake or just a very poorly made, late war sword, in which case who cares.

Grey

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Hi Andres,

We need to see pictures. Once we do there's a 90 some percent chance that most of us will know immediately what you have. The other few percent chance we'll argue a bit whether it is a fake or just a very poorly made, late war sword, in which case who cares.

Grey

 

Oh with everything taken as a whole, my eyes would say that it is extremely unlikely that this blade is anything but junk. Even if it wasnt just an out and out fake it would still be a very poorly made (or very badly tortured) sword and absolutely not be worth the money to polish. This is primarily a learning exercise. If say you went to a show or to an antiques store and saw something you thought might be real, what would you look for if the polish was very bad?

 

Thanks for the responses guys, I will get some pictures for you next time I have a chance to photograph the sword.

 

Andres G.

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