On the subject of fakes and forgeries - a humble suggestion

[Antti]

As I have mentioned before, I have, once again, been training my eye and learning about attributions by going through the old topics of this forum, and they have been a treasure cove of information. However, once in a while, I've run into a topic, where an enthusiastic newcomer has proudly presented his first piece, which turns out to be a bad chinese fake. As a newcomer myself, it greatly surprised me at first, that there are so many forgeries out there. A laymen might think that tsuba are fringe items, and that one might not see purposeful fakes in the market so often. The site which I visited often at the beginning of my studies, was Richard Stein's website, which has a short introduction to fake tsuba. However the pictures are small, and there are only three of them. Also I believe that this great site is not being updated. Mr. Hallam mentioned in an old topic that he is planning a "Wall of Shame" of fake tsuba, but I do not know whether it ever led to anything.

 

Therefore, lately, I have been downloading every single bloody picture of fakes presented on this forum. I got the permission from mr. Robinson to do this. So what I have, is a rar. file, of more than 30 pictures of 19 fake tsuba posted on this forum. I repeat that the pictures were posted on this forum, and I havent taken any from links to eBay and such. I have also dismissed several because the pictures were horrible, or there was some dispute over the tsuba's authenticity. I also made a short Word-format-index, which shows the topic where the fake was presented, and gives the source of the fake (eBay/pawnshop for example).

 

I've read through almost every single old topic on the Tosogu-subforum during the last 12 months, and I have seen a pattern which repeats way too often. An enthusiastic newcomer comes in, has not done his homework, presents a chinese fake, gets stumped, gets discouraged and is never seen again. If we can prevent a single transaction of fake tsuba for real money, it would be worth it. We might help a newcomer to succeed in his first purchase, and therefore encourage him to go on. As an added bonus, we might achieve some satisfaction by stopping a chinese conman from making a dishonest buck.

 

I suggest we could try to write a short article to this forum, presenting the fakes and showing newcomers what to look for. As a newcomer I dont have the experience, expertise or the authority to write something like this, but many of you do. Something like this, with a short introduction to fakes with proper photos, perhaps with the obvious signs highlighted, would greatly ease the growing pains of a newcomer.

 

Please do consider this suggestion and share your thoughts. If my suggestion does not get support, at least you know that the pictures of fakes are at least in one place, in my possession, for any future use.

[Jean]

Antti,

 

The main problem is that newbies buy first, then begin to search, find the Forum and post their tsuba afterward, trying to know what is what they bought...

Any wise man should do the opposite as you indicated.

[John A Stuart]

Pretty good idea. It constantly amazes me that there is such a huge market for tsuba somehow. Tons of low grade tsuba are bought and sold. Tons of fakes are bought and sold. Who are these people that are buying all these tsuba? They aren't at shows or online at sites like this. If these people would stop buying them the market would collapse. I really am baffled. John

[Antti]

Jean, although I'm sure you are right about the impulsive newcomers playing russian roulet with their wallets, one reason for this might be that they are:

A: unaware of the amount of fakes out there - I was

B: unable to find info on these fakes - I somewhat did

We probably cannot control their impulsiveness, but we could, perhaps, serve those who at least are marginally interested finding out more while considering a purchase.

 

Mr. Stuart, I think the subject of Samurai is generally rather appealing, and perhaps many people are looking for an authentic item to put on their bookshelves. So perhaps most buyers are not aiming to be collectors, but to get a genuine relic to remind them of the famous warrior class. Therefore tsuba are rather accessible.

This is how I started, and these damn things just turned out to be more addictive than I thought.

 

(edit) And perhaps this article could be used as a refence of sorts, to give to newcomers to read, even if they have already made a bad purchase. You wouldnt have to point out the obvious flaws everytime a fake is presented, and you could just give them a link to this article. This way the newcomers would get info on fakes, instead of just the bitter taste of "Chinese fake, sorry"-treatment.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Antti, you have an excellent idea, but with one major problem. Very few newbie buyers of tsuba know about this wonderful board BEFORE they buy. Only after they do they start looking for experts to tell them what they have, as Jean said, & of course by then it's too late....

 

Brian - & many of the rest of us - often refer people to NMB. I referred two people here just yesterday, but they had already purchased items. If there was some way to let the entire world of current collectors, AND people who are thinking about becoming collectors, know about the huge database of information available here, then we could probably do a lot more good at steering buyers away from fakes...but nothing like that exists, at least that I know of.

 

Ken

[Antti]

Ken, while I do agree with you, there is not much info on fake tsuba even if they DO find this forum. Well the info is here, but it's scattered to a thousand topics.

 

Lets take a scenario.

A random person strolls through the eBay rubbish, and thinks "This is suspicious, I wonder if this is a fake?", goes to google, writes "Fake Tsuba".

Results:

#1 is the JSSUS site, with one case of fake tsuba, which has a link to NMB

#2 http://www.nihontocraft.com, which has a link to NMB

#3 result was Richard Stein's website, which has a link to NMB

#4 is the NMB

 

However the JSSUS site only contains one fake, nihontocraft none, Stein's website containing 3 small pictures and in NMB the info is scattered. A concentrated article, in NMB, that can easily be found through google, might serve as the first line of defence against fakes.

 

I think I have said everything I can, and made my case as far as it can be made. Therefore I will rest my case, and see what the jury thinks.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Antti, we're not a jury, & at least a couple of us think you have a good idea. But implementation is really the key here.

 

Let's assume for the moment that Brian is willing to go into search-engine optimization mode, & our NMB article comes out as #1 on Google. Okay, great.

 

Now, however, we have to address what's fake & what isn't. On a case-by-case basis, this isn't tremendously difficult. On a global "look here before you buy a tsuba" basis, there's a whole different problem. If you've looked at a number of tosogu yourself, especially on places like eBay, you can tell there's a huge range of quality. How does our newbie make the determination on what is a "real" tsuba, & what isn't? An infinite number of photos in our article? Of course, he/she could be smart & only buy tsuba with origami, & our global article could suggest that. But what about the myriad other tsuba that he/she sees at 1/10 the price in an auction? I wish there was some sort of checklist that anyone could follow - the same for Nihonto, BTW! - but there's such a huge quantity of available items that I don't see how that could work.

 

Like anything else, you really do have to spend the time to study tosogu until you have at least a semi-informed idea of what's real, & what is junk. There are some excellent study materials at Web-sites like http://home.earthlink.net/~jggilbert/tsuba.htm, & many good books on the subject. But, as many of our more experienced collectors have recommended, you really need to have some hands-on time so you can get the "feel" for what's real & what isn't.

 

But if you want to take the time to collate all of the information available on NMB & turn it into one gigantic article, I don't think Brian would have problem with doing that. But I'm just not sure how effective it will be for newbies....

 

Ken

[Antti]

Ken, I think I have misrepresented certain things.

 

About google, the scenario I described earlier is what would happen right now if you type "Fake Tsuba" into google. So NMB is already pretty high up there (#4), and perhaps it is ok as it is? I dont know much about search engine mechanincs, but we dont have to be #1, it's perhaps enough to be among the first few, which is the case now.

 

But if you want to take the time to collate all of the information available on NMB & turn it into one gigantic article...

 

It does not have to be gigantic. It cannot be as a matter of fact. The impulsive newcomer probably would not read it if it was. I'm talking about... let's say 1-2 pages (Word, A4) of text, complimented with the pictures from the forum. Many fakes that have been posted are very easy to spot if you know what to look for . Casting seams, lifeless seppa dai, wrong shape nakago ana, porous material, nonsensical (and soft edged) signature, terrible "patina", excessive use of gold and silver (color), cast sekigane which is part of the plate and so forth. Take a look at these topics. Every single simply screams 'FAKE', and I think it would not be impossible for even a first time buyer to get to grips with the flaws.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15927

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17114

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15536

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14752

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14555

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10971

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10918

 

When it comes to me writing it, as I mentioned in my first message, I dont think I should do it. I lack the experience many others here have. I would love to write about this, but it would not be right. A newbie instructing a newbie sounds like a recipe for disaster. That is why I'm throwing an idea out there, and asking help from more experienced collectors. I have already collected a lot of pictures, and would be willing to help in any way I can.

 

The idea would be:

1. To make sure they understand that fakes are out there, a special case to be made with eBay (WARN)

2. There are some easy, and basic ways to identify a fake (TEACH)

3. Direct them to the Links-section, For Sale-subforum and such (DIRECT)

 

Now there are fakes that are very difficult to spot, but these very bad fakes seem to be much more numerous. If we could at least get them over these easy fakes, many incidents of buying a fake might be prevented. At the same time we are making them skeptical, so at least they start to ask new questions before making the purchase.

[kaigunair]

Antti, I think you're the exact person to write this article! You have listed quite a few of the aspects on your most recent post for such a post.

 

As one neophyte to another, its because you're looking for this specific info, that you've been focused on this question about Chinese fakes and are aware what the most common pitfalls are. Therefore, you can write about it. You've already compiled photos, and I'm sure for each of the photos, there are characteristics which you've committed to memory that indicate its a fake. More experienced collectors probably don't even think about those since its second nature to them.

 

What the forum could do is PIN your article up to the top of the tosogu section, which would help those looking for "how to spot a fake tsuba from china". Just make sure "Fake" and "Tsuba" and "China", "Chinese" and Japanese Sword Guard" is on the topic title.

 

It would be easier for the more experienced members to chime in and add corrections to your initial article through posts, and which you can incorporate into your original post.

 

I think you'd come up with an excellent post/article on how to spot fake chinese tsuba. Your concerns about lack of experience might be more apropos if the article started to stray into the gimie signature area, but that's not dealing with Chinese fakes...

[Jean]

Thousand of people are combing ebay 24H/24H, so nothing escape specialists, so shunt tsuba with less than 5 bids

 

Shunt ebay tsuba at less than 50$, above post in the tosogu section a picture of the tsuba.

 

I know fakes at 2000$, so it is useless to post examples as there are thousand fakes and a newbie unless studying hard the subject will be unable to spot a fake, unless obvious.

[Pete Klein]

Just a little piece of advice from someone who has 'really' been there. Study by whatever means available good to great quality pieces and then you will see the fakes. I never understood a great tsuba until I saw in hand a Juyo level Nobuie and Jinbei. It all fell into place that fine Friday morning in Tampa, 2007.

[Antti]

As no new comments are coming in, I'd like to draw a conclusion.

 

Jean and Ken have pointed out several reasons why this just would not be worth it. The number of fakes, and the impulsiveness (buy first - study second) of the newbie buyer, would render the article ineffective. This combined to the fact, and I insist, that I would not be the right person to write it anyway. Perhaps in a few years, but right now I do not have the authority to write about this even if the idea would be viable.

 

Thank you Jean, Ken, mr. Stuart, Junichi and mr. Klein for your input. Should the need for such an article arise in the future, I'll keep the pics on my hard drive.