runagmc Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 Wise words from Paul... I don't think the community (seasoned collectors) should be too judgemental toward new collectors, but there also comes a point where being blunt about reality is necessary (by this I mean the ones who continue to make foolish mistakes, like Paul said)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted October 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 Maybe you are right and that these people are not newbies but are just interested in buying a/one "Japanese sword" and not by the subject and are disappointed when getting a fake, otherwise I see no excuse, taking into account the ressources available on the web about any subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattle1 Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 Hello: Jean states that in decades past there were not as many fakes as today. I wonder. In a lecture given to the To-ken Society of the Netherlands, August. 26, 1979, the late Han Bing Siong, in my opinion one of the very best students of the sword in the post war era, said the following: "...To develop the capability to determine whether a sword signature is authentic or a forgery is absolutely a prerequisite. That one must always be very careful and never blindly believe what is inscribed on a sword's tang is illustrated by figures published on swords in Japan in 1972. At that time an estimated 1,200,00 swords were registered in Japan. Of the swords submitted for appraisal three-fifths were unsigned. Of the remainder, however, one half were judged to be false..." That 50% failure rate was 42 years ago. Arnold F. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted October 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 Sorry Arnold, my English is responsible for this mistake. I was not talking about gimei but fake as in Chinese fake. A fake blade and not a fake signature, I bought forty years ago a gimei sword signed " Izumi no kami Fujiwara Kunisada". In my English, a gimei sword is not a fake because it is still a real nihonto, only the signature was forged (BTW, I bought it knowing it was gimei and paid accordingly the right price). A real good wakizashi slightly suriage, futasuji and a lot of hataraki. Edit to add: My thread is directed to newbies buying fakes and not gimei, as this one: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=16961 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattle1 Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 Hello: Jean, your English is fine; I lived in a country for years that had French as its second official language, and even street signs continued to be a challenge. Yes fake, gimei, reproduction, etc., can all get easily misplaced. Anyway, should anyone be interested in the source of the quotation from Mr. Han, it is in the NBTHK's Token Bijutsu, Summer, 1981, No. 9, pp. 42-43. He doesn't say who did the "appraisal" work, but I would assume it was the NBTHK. Mere police registration would not be doing any sort of authentication appraisal. It would be interesting to get current NBTHK statistics. From what we see from recent shinsa over here by the NTHK groups, the failure rates can get pretty high, but of course their criteria are broader than just mei, some failures obviously having no mei. Perhaps Chris Bowen might have some of those breakdowns. Arnold F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surfson Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 Jean, this has been a very enjoyable thread - I suspected this when I read your first post. And of course I knew very well that you are not a newbie! It has made me realize the stark differences between collecting in the US and collecting in Europe. The huge flux of swords to the US after the war did not occur in France, and probably occurred very little in the UK. If I am not mistaken, some war souvenir swords went to Australia. The swords brought back to the US after the war were nearly all in the hands of GIs that did not understand and often did not respect their importance to Japanese culture (I am speaking now of the genuine samurai swords that represented a small fraction of the war prizes. If anybody knows what percent of typical WWII military mounted Japanese swords were hand made blades of shinshinto period or earlier, I would love to know it. My guess is around 5% or so.). During the last 60+ years, it has been possible to find swords still in the possession of the family of the GI that brought it back. This has created a "treasure hunt" opportunity and made looking for such treasures fun. As I mentioned in my earlier post, these GI swords are now drying up. In the vast majority of cases, the families of the GI that brought them back are just not interested in keeping them. Many of the US collectors on the NMB can tell stories of running advertisements in local papers to find Japanese swords and visiting the GI himself or his family. In my own quest to find these, I have seen so many wonderful swords that had been ruined since they came to the US. I suspect that the kids of the GIs were often to blame for this (who would let their kid play with a supersharp Japanese sword!). In Europe, I imagine that most swords were purchased as collectibles or art, and have therefore at least been appreciated to be a valuable and expensive object to be cared for appropriately. In any case, I do hope that there is a flux of new collectors that come to appreciate the incredible art and craft of the Japanese sword. We need this to maintain the field. Interestingly, many of the newbies that post here are the son or grandson of the GI that brought a sword back, and a proportion of them seem to have acquired a genuine interest in the object beyond understanding its monetary value. Your post has raised a great number of important points for consideration for people with a new found interest in Japanese swords, and I thank you for it. Cheers, Bob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted October 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 Robert, You are 100% right, WWII in Europe was between the Allies and 3rd Reich, so no Japanese swords brought back to France from Germany. The existing swords were mainly coming from the European private collections buit at the end of the 19th century, so no sword hunting in France. Now I knew Robert Burawoy when he was a Japanese Antiques dealer. On regular basis, he was travelling to the States for sword hunting purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex A Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 Jean, i think it is good that the subject of false signatures (gimei) as been added to your discussion, the biggest scam in nihonto since day 1, the newbie also needs to know about it, from day 1. Alex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surfson Posted October 3, 2013 Report Share Posted October 3, 2013 Jean, I didn't realize that Burawoy was no longer in the business, as your post implies. I visited him in Paris (I think) many years ago at his shop and picked up several wonderful posters and a couple copies of his tsuba book, which is really well done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted October 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2013 Robert, He retired about 8 to 10 years ago. I bought 3 swords from him. All top ones. Resold since. Edit to add: I bought equally three outstanding tsuba. Marc Broquin bought two of them from me.. It was the time when he edited with a few professional dealers " La revue de l'Association Franco-Japonaise". There was an American edition during 2/3 years for which I translated a few articles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwordGuyJoe Posted October 3, 2013 Report Share Posted October 3, 2013 Love the topic here Jean. Compared to most weighing in here, I'm still a newbie (first sword eight years ago - a Nagamitsu (Ichihara) because it looked so cool!) but I want to interject my thought. Ideally, Jean and others are dead on! The issue is that is not how it usually goes - use me as an example. I went through the typical fervor where every sword was a perfect example of what I absolutely had to have. I have since (I feel) gotten to the point that Jean has suggested, but most who enjoy Japanese art and culture stumble on to the hobby then quickly - if they're lucky - realize that they HAVE to learn before they make a mistake (if one has not been made already). When I bought my first sword, I didn't know what I didn't know. So how could/would I assume that collecting/buying swords properly required years of study and should only be entered into following rules similar to those outlined in this thread. I think my guide for the newbie that has already purchased is: 1. Realize you have no idea what you're doing and act appropriately. Read, go to a show if possible, if not study swords online. 2. If you messed up and spent $2k on a showato, don't expect a return. ITS NOT WORTH THAT! 3. Not every blade that has some polish issues needs to be polished and most aren't worth it. 4. Don't try to find a "cheap" polisher to get around point three. 5. Now that you've been collecting for five years and know what hada means, refer to step 1. 6. When in doubt or questions arise, see point 1. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Klein Posted October 3, 2013 Report Share Posted October 3, 2013 Joe -- !!! LOL!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted October 4, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2013 Very good Joe :D In fact, this thread could be sum up by: KNOW WHAT YOU BUY AND BE SURE TO PAY THE RIGHT PRICE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Posted October 4, 2013 Report Share Posted October 4, 2013 FIRST OF ALL: BE ADULT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE PAYING FOR BEFORE BUYING SEARCH ADVICES SOME OF THEM Buy always the best you can afford, Never buy unpolished blades, Starting Muromachi, don't buy any shortened sword Buy certified blades when signed BTW: avoid ebay if you are not an expert Interesting topic and very useful common sense advice for beginners. Just to make things clear Jean, when you say "starting Muromachi" you mean "including Muromachi", right? P.S. I wouldn't say that only nihonto experts can buy from ebay, Under the right circumstances even nihonto newbies can score on ebay, if they have good knowledge of the ebay mechanisms and understand where the true bargains have a (slim) chance to appear. However, if looking to bid on a nihonto item sold by an established ebay seller, you better be an expert (or get help from a real and honest expert). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex A Posted October 4, 2013 Report Share Posted October 4, 2013 Adrian, i am intrigued...what are these mechanisms you speak of?. Bare in mind, this thread is for folk who are clueless on the subject of nihonto. Alex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Posted October 4, 2013 Report Share Posted October 4, 2013 I'd rather not spin off Jean's topic, if you don't mind. You could always open a topic about purchasing on ebay, if we are to discuss the various do and don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zentsuji2 Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 Everyone was a newbie at first,everybody regardless of money they possess, should and can collect nihonto,everyone has made a buy they wish they had not,every person is in different countries, with different rules and acsess to swords,new problems come with different purchases,no one's perfect and alot who ask here didn't know about the board until they already had a sword,i have learned,a lot from people here I have made bad decisions in buying out of polish blade,hiding ware,this,place has been kind,harsh,but it is all true what these learned people have said at least to me,i am an impulse buyer and this costs,i have books but again each era gives a new challenge, i have finally learned to wait,look,ask read and look for respected buyers,i must commend the moderators Brian,Jean,john,George trotter,c bowen,dennis and all who have put up with my queries, questions and doubts,i am still looking for that magic sword,my others I class as teaching guides of what not to do again,even though they are good gendaito and given me hours of pleasure, i think we are all different as people some impulsive, some must have,some patient but with all these must come knowledge,i am still here a year later and although poor, this board has given me a hobby in my difficult times at home,thanks for that,best of luck to all collectors on here.Ian bellis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam M Posted February 24, 2014 Report Share Posted February 24, 2014 Sound advice from everyone here, I will certainly take this into account Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hybridfiat Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 I am a relative 'newbie' and have bought and made one or 2 mistakes so Ill give any other newbies my take on this. Dont think that you are going to be able to find that 'diamond in the rough'. 1. Buy from a respected dealer and buy a polished blade. I bought a wakizashi blade in fittings for $700 then had it polished in Japan at a very reasonable rate. Not a rate normally found by beginers I might add (Thank you John Grasso). The total cost came to $300 more than a beautifully polished Shin Shinto katana in new fittings that John had. So even having got the blade dirt cheap it still cost more than a better buy from a dealer. 2. Dont buy on impulse. Nihonto trading has been going on for centuries and the speed of sales is sometimes at the same pace. "What is for you won't go past you". Save up and ASK THE NMB FIRST! My first purchase was a genuine Wak from Ebay which had I asked first would have been discouraged from buying because it was gimei. I was in a hurry. 6 months later a better Wak came up at NMB but I'd spent the money already so missed out. 3. Don't buy from Ebay unless someone respected at NMB says it is a good deal. Otherwise give Ebay a wide berth. You will not know what is a good deal for a few years and the swords go round and round. Dont worry. I hope that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex A Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 Resurrecting this thread for another piece of advice. Dont forget to say THANK YOU to anyone who took the time to help you. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 3. Attend the major sword shows in the US for a starter: Tampa, Chicago, San Francisco, and others. Keep your wallet in your pocket, talk to dealers, and others wandering around. Most table holders are more than happy to show you material, but be sure you know how to properly and safely handle anything you are allowed to pick up before you do it, and always ask for permission, sign or no sign. In a couple of years off to Tokyo for the Dai Token Ichi held at the end of each October. I think it is a diet a little too rich for a first year newbie, but maybe not. IMO this should be the mandatory starting point for everyone who can attend (without spending triple digit figures just for being at one show). Don't be lazy, the books and the Internet can only take you that far. Things are tougher for those of us who would have to spend the cost of an entry level sword just to attend one of the big shows in the US... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted October 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 Right Adrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wublet Posted October 27, 2015 Report Share Posted October 27, 2015 I'll be curious to know how many of the subscribing newbies are still there one year later. Well speaking as newbie here a year later, the longer I stick around the more fascinated I become. I've yet to buy a sword but was lucky enough to be gifted one and after copious amounts of reading (and re-reading) I am saving for a trip to Japan late next year and should I be able to find one with enough time to schedule it in I will be attepting to find an authourity to guide me for a day perhaps. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tokashikibob Posted October 27, 2015 Report Share Posted October 27, 2015 Jeff, Check to see if there are any sword and Armour collections in any nearby Daimyo castles. Worth the trip and usually free. Best regards, Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted November 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2015 Thanks Ryan. In order to avoid anyother hijack, I am locking this topic, if you want to carry on, please open a new one with a different title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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