Taken for a ride?

[Bugyotsuji]

Recently I bought two rusty Yajiri which generally passed the looks test and I posted them on the site here. They had nice long nakago which I had been assured was a good sign. They were no way near as rough as some of the ones being knocked out in China which we often see nowadays so I was a little reassured. The dealer assured me that they were genuine Edo arrowheads and I let his words tip the balance and decided to believe him. Later a friend looked at them and laughed. "You've been diddled", he said, but refused to say how he knew. I got some brilliant lessons in arrowhead binding and tried fitting one to a genuinely old but tatty arrow. Unfortunately the nakago was too thick and split the reed shaft. If you don't look too closely the effect is pretty good, though.

 

Putting two and two together and consulting with other friends and dealers it seems there is a newer generation of more sophisticated Chinese modern repro arrowheads on the market. Now, I do not think the dealer actually knew what he had, and in the meantime I have polished the rust off them, so I cannot really take them back. The tell-tale signs are in the evenness of the red rust, the lack of a yaki-ire under the rust, the machine-stamped steel and the slightly too thick nakago.

 

What I thought was a reasonable deal now turns out to have been an expensive mistake.

 

Part II Last Sunday at an antiques fair I stumbled on a pile of five of what I thought were Katana no tsuka bukuro. No, the (different) dealer said, they are covers for yari. Well, I have two long yari, so I needed to make sure my ears were hearing correctly, so I said, for yari? Yes, he said, they go over the Saya to protect them. I had never heard of such a thing; it was like discovering a lost treasure. For good measure I checked them over and there were a couple that were identical in construction but of different sizes. Are you sure these aren't for katana, I asked? They are Dai-sho, but for spears he said. Never having heard of Daisho in spears, I asked him to repeat that. Patiently he explained again. Not wishing to appear a fool, I decided to keep my mouth shut and buy them. My friend who should know about such things said nothing. The dealer said if I didn't take them he'd be putting them into the auction that evening. Later that evening I checked on the internet and there is no evidence of short covers for yari saya. My friend later told me that he knew the dealer and it would have been bad manners to say anything in front of him. Now it looks as though I have added 5 sword hilt covers to the three or four I already own.

 

This Sunday there is another antiques fair where this dealer often appears. The weather forecast is rain, so no guarantee he will turn up. Again, I don't think he knew what he was talking about. I hate to think he deliberately lied to me.

 

The result is the same, though. Within two months I have been relieved of precious cash for things that are not what they were stated to be.

[Brian]

Piers,

Can we get close up pics of the yajiri again please?

As for the covers...if they are old, I am sure you will find buyers here.

 

Brian

[Bugyotsuji]

Brian, I can't find where I posted them, somewhere in a recent Yajiri thread... if you have already seen these pics, then please understand. Before and after pics. The cutting edges are sharp. String cutters, the dealer had said.

 

The Tsuka-bukuro are genuine old covers, but they do not have Kamon on them. I'll lay them out and take some shots anyway.

[Bugyotsuji]

After shots

[Bugyotsuji]

In my own defence/defense, the local Banto of the sword shop took one look at them and said "How much do you want? I'll give you 20,000 yen for them." I think he was also genuinely fooled by them and was making a cheap (to him) offer. I shrugged him off as I wanted to find out more about them, not sell them. He was later put off by the guy doing the laughing.

 

Overall length 27.5 cm; nakago 21.5 cm.

 

PS Maybe I simply alluded to them, without posting actual pics here on the NMB. I must admit that I feel quite exposed posting these shots, probably taking ridicule, but, here's hoping they may help someone one day. :|

[Gilles]

Dear Piers,

 

About arrowheads, I learnt like you, that is to say the hard way.

You are right, if the nakago is too wide or thick that is a sign which goes in the wrong path. Real nakago have yasurime and can have 4, 6 or even 8 side. The whole arrowhead must appear "balanced".

[Brian]

Yep. Although I can't explain it...for me yajiri have to be bought by a gut feel that has to be listened to. Sometimes I cannot explain what makes me uneasy about one..but it's there and I avoid that item. I don't think anyone will mock you for that purchase. Sorry you had to pay to teach us

 

Brian

[cabowen]

Sorry to hear of your bad luck...

 

瀬戸　古刀　強盗

 

seto koto goto

 

Have you heard that kotowaza before Piers?

[Bugyotsuji]

It's a nice short one, so I think I can use it. Can't find such a proverb running searches on the J internet though.

 

Normally people say around here that antique dealers are 'kitsune to tanuki' 狐と狸,　trying to outfox each other, from 狐と狸の化かし合い.

[cabowen]

A good friend of mine, a togi-shi, first told me that....

 

For those wondering, literally, it reads "ceramics old swords robbery"

 

One translation might be: "when dealing in antiques, be prepared to be robbed..."

[Pete Klein]

I find it interesting that when buying we tend to believe that there is some tacit obligation for the dealer to be forthright and honest and to teach us what we do not know, which is of course the dealer's wet dream. I have found that by taking the opposite path and not trusting the dealer (even when I actually do) and relying upon my own knowledge and research I have made fewer blunders as I have progressed in the field. If I am not sure I do not buy but if I do anyway and it is not what I thought it was then I blame only myself and use it as a learning tool, just like a school test. "Do not fix the blame, fix the problem" (from the movie, 'Rising Sun'). Placing blame on someone else perpetuates the problem: our own lack of knowledge and experience.

[Chibi]

Hmm, it always seems everybody wants or rather demands the cheapest possible price for a high quality item, but everyone expects it with guarantees, papers, seals and a pedigree ???

 

I am not saying, that there are not bad and deceiving dealers out there, but dealers are dealing with merchandise (that does not make them experts on each and every item), THEY buy items to resell, at their risk and with their money, that is their business. As a buyer, it is in the end always up to you to take responsibility for what you buy. Of course the dealer will make profit and he should for his services, nobody put a gun to your head to buy anything. Also we are not talking about life necessities here, we are talking about luxury items. People buy things, because they think they get something out of it, it might be financial or of sentimental value, the point is the same, they get SOMETHING out of it. Is there is a risk, of course, it is business... That is called a free market, everything else is communism... Food for thought.

[Justin Grant]

Maybe I misunderstood Pier's post, but I do not think he was blaming the dealers. He said the fakes seem to be more realistic on the arrows. His post seemed to be a warning to anyone in the market to be aware. As for the tsuka bukuro, I think the point here is that it was a learning exercise and to be aware of what you are purchasing.

 

Were the dealers aware and trying to take him for a ride? He said he hoped not, but he also admitted that he owned the ultimate responsibility. His was a PSA , that even someone immersed in Japan and the Japanese culture can be fooled, be it intentionally or on unintentionally.

 

Your mileage may vary.

[Chibi]

Maybe I misunderstood Pier's post, but I do not think he was blaming the dealers. He said the fakes seem to be more realistic on the arrows. His post seemed to be a warning to anyone in the market to be aware. As for the tsuka bukuro, I think the point here is that it was a learning exercise and to be aware of what you are purchasing.

 

Were the dealers aware and trying to take him for a ride? He said he hoped not, but he also admitted that he owned the ultimate responsibility. His was a PSA , that even someone immersed in Japan and the Japanese culture can be fooled, be it intentionally or on unintentionally.

 

Your mileage may vary.

 

Dear Justin,

 

the headline of this thread is "Taken for a ride?".

 

The last sentence of the original post says:" Within two months I have been relieved of precious cash for things that are not what they were stated to be.".

 

I stick with my post...

[Chibi]

Thinking about this whole thing, I can only come up with 6 kind of sellers:

 

1. People that inherit, find or some how get an item into their possession, which has no sentimental value for them, neither do they have an idea of the real value of the object. They will sell for any price, as it will all be 100% profit.

 

2. People that sell fake stuff or make false claims to make maximum profits.

 

3. People that collect, buy and trade. They might buy an item, enjoy it for a while and than try to sell it at cutting even cost to get something else.

 

4. People that buy an item at low lost cost trying to make a profit on it.

 

5. People that need fast cash and are willing to sell an item under value.

 

6. Professional dealers, that make a living buying and selling and running a shop.

 

As for buyers, it is pretty much always people that getting something they assume it is worth the price or most likely think it is worth more.

[Pete Klein]

Just remember the first of the 'Ferengi Rules of Aquisition': Once you have their money, you never give it back.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferengi_Ru ... cquisition

 

PS: I love this:

 

In addition to the Rules, Ferengi recognize five Stages of Acquisition:[7]

1.Infatuation: An unreasoning love or attraction … "I want it."

2.Justification: Moral excuse used to explain … "I must have it!"

3.Appropriation: To take to one's self in exclusion of others … "IT'S MINE AT LAST!"

4.Obsession: A compulsive or irrational preoccupation … "My Precious!"

5.Resale: The action of selling something previously bought … "Make me an offer."

 

Reminds me of the 'Five Stages of Death' by Elizabeth Kübler-Ross...

 

PS: "We have met the Ferengi, and they are us"... PK

[Bugyotsuji]

Thanks for all the interplanetary wisdom.

 

PS Arrowheads for Sale

[estcrh]

 

Part II Last Sunday at an antiques fair I stumbled on a pile of five of what I thought were Katana no tsuka bukuro. No, the (different) dealer said, they are covers for yari.

Piers, can you post pictures of these, I am interested in seeing them.

[Justin Grant]

I already called dibs! LOL

[Bugyotsuji]

Eric, as Justin says he has earmarked three of them, which are not shown below.

 

The remainder are:

 

Two in leather, both with no lining/backing. Condition both good, but the green one stiff and needs TLC.

1. green, open-ended for the Kashira to show,

2. light brown leather, large. I suspect this latter to be WWI - WWII.

 

Three in navy/grey/gray felt/cloth with colored silk lining. (Propped open with matchsticks) One Katana, two Wakizashi? Condition fair(ish) for their age. The large one has some brown staining; of the two smaller ones, one has some moth holes.

1. small, Wak

2. small, Wak

3. large, Katana

[estcrh]

Definately not for yari, I dont know what the dealer was thinking.