hi guys this is showato blade or gendai ww2

[isidro305]

this is a NOSHU JU KANETOSHI i have se is a god gendai smith and low showato 2 y have a question wend I have a question is the most inportante as I am new to be traditional made​​, the hamon always have to be white or can be like this thanks

 

isidro:

[cabowen]

It's difficult to tell with certainty from pictures, especially only these two, but I would say there is a good chance it is traditionally made.

[isidro305]

thanks I think it not traditional no star and has to have both seki and star

isidro:

[chrisf]

You may have misread that information.A blade without any stamps may be a gendaito or non-traditionally made blade,the blade in question I believe to be a gendaito.

[David Flynn]

Star stamp means the this is a RJT (Rikugun Jumei Tosho) and the sword is an military commissioned Gendaito. The Seki stamp means, the sword has come through the Seki arsenal and is probably non tradionaly made. Lack of stamps, usually means a privately commissioned sword..

[shingen]

Isidro,

 

Could post a few more photo's of the blade?

[chrisf]

Two type 3 gunto sold by ebay seller 'tictocnmore',both appeared to be gendaito,one by Kanetoshi the other by Shoda Masafusa,$1277.77 for Kanetoshi,$1025 for Masafusa which to my mind is not a lot of money but as I live in the UK am barred from bidding on them thanks to the idiocy of ebay.uk.

[chrisf]

Meant to add that Kanetoshi mounted in metal saya,Masafusa in brown,rough finish lacquered wood.

Thoughts anyone?

Brian (bmoore) these are two of the swords that I made mention of in my response to your last Kanezane post.

[george trotter]

The blade by Kaneyoshi (rust free blade and tang in pics) looks promising. Here is a prime example of what Chris Bowen and I were discussing elsewhere in the last day or so (Seki and Yasukuni schools workmanship ratings)...here is a Seki work by Kaneyoshi that looks quite competent in the blade , but where the finish of the tang and the mei cutting is un-appealing. If only the Seki smiths had spent more time on the tang finishing and learn to write/cut mei elegantly they would probably have gained more recognition with gendaito collectors ( member Dave Flynn and I being some of the few? here who like them ).

regards,

[Kai-Gunto]

The blade by Kaneyoshi (rust free blade and tang in pics) looks promising. Here is a prime example of what Chris Bowen and I were discussing elsewhere in the last day or so (Seki and Yasukuni schools workmanship ratings)...here is a Seki work by Kaneyoshi that looks quite competent in the blade , but where the finish of the tang and the mei cutting is un-appealing. If only the Seki smiths had spent more time on the tang finishing and learn to write/cut mei elegantly they would probably have gained more recognition with gendaito collectors ( member Dave Flynn and I being some of the few? here who like them ).

regards,

The blade dosnt look like its rust free?

[george trotter]

Hi Thomas,

There are pics of two blades/nakagos.

The rusty nakago is signed Masafusa...it belongs to the blade pics with the small black rust spots.

The secoind nakago is signed Kanetoshi...it belongs to the pics of the clean blade .

It is this clean blade/nakago I was commenting on.

Regards,

[k morita]

Hi George san,

The Masafusa blade is Shoda(family name) Masafusa.荘田　正房

[george trotter]

Hi Kiyoshi san,

thank you...Masafus was a good maker.

I think the Kaneyoshi (Noshu ju Kanetoshi) is maybe Shoka Kaneyoshi, chuge saku in Tosho Banzuke 1941 ( I think not Murayama or Mori)...I think this Shoka Kanetoshi became Rikugun Jumei Tosho.

regards,

[chrisf]

Thomas/gunto,apologies but my fault for posting in wrong order but I think there are caps at bottom saying which is which.

George I read your discussion with CAB on the merits of two different schools of gendaitosho and can see the merit in both sides,in the case of these two blades however,I have to say that I much prefer the Masafusa with a softer more organic looking hamon,I find that of the Kanetoshi in comparison a bit 'stilted' and contrived but just as well we don't all like the same thing!

Despite the 'downers' ebay has and has had some decent looking gendaito to view.

[george trotter]

Hi Chrisf,

Thanks for that. Yes, it is a matter of preference (which should always be to the quality of the blade first). Funnily enough, having said that, I was talking to a collector this weekend whom I hadn't seen for 20 years...he asked me if I like Yasukunito. Of course I said yes, and we discussed their history and quality, but when I said I was not "attracted" to suguba versions enough to buy one (no offense Chris B)...he said he was the same and was at present chasing a Yasukunito with a very active hamon. I suppose this means some of us don't practise what we preach (quality as first priority), in our case it seems to be quality yes (but we have to like it also). Of course, if one came along at a garage sale price we would be crazy to let it pass! .

 

Just referring to these two blades, I think the Masafusa is a nice sword with a well finished nakago (with "simple" mei style) and I think the Kanetoshi has potential, but in the latter case I do find that a not-so-well finished and properly signed nakago does make me think twice about buying...this is a case where I would have to have it in hand to make a final decision...so few of the Seki nakagos are well done...wonder why?...must be deliberate style.

 

regards,

[cabowen]

Most Yasukuni blades have a quiet elegance which, being rather subdued, doesn't have the flash that appeals to many. However, there are those done in an active choji that are quite showy though they are rare. It takes a certain kind of collector to appreciate the shibui character of the typical Yasukuni blade.

[george trotter]

Mochiron, Chris san no aji wa yoku wakarimasu. I am half way between shibui and flashy (so I am half enlightened).

I too appreciate that less can be more...I once had a suguba gendaito (mumei) which I really liked; very even chu-suguba with nice kaeri in the boshi...the aspect that made me appreciate it was that there was one floating island like an mirage just before the yokote on one side (I hesitate to say tobiyaki as it was almost touching the hamon and was longish, like an iceflow on the horizon, about 1 cm) . What made it an attractive suguba for me was that one slight "imperfection'. The workmanship was good-high.

My favourite two swords are a WWII copy of Zenjo Kanetsune (IMHO): suguba with the occasional tobiyaki trio (Edit: I meant Togari trio) breaking into low gonome in the monouchi, and next a komidare hamon by Osaka Yoshisada (Gassan connection)...happily, my wife picked these two out as her choice also!!! (happy wife happy life :lol: ).

I do like choji (once had a Ishido Mitsuhira) and "flashy" hamon ...but with the proviso that it has the features I like...a bit of both quietness and activity and vice-versa...if that makes sense

Good thing we are all different IMHO...it doesn't matter which style or era, as long as quality is the prime objective.

regards,

[chrisf]

I have to confess to being unable to appreciate Yasukunito in my earlier days and back then they were a comparative snip but in my ignorance I turned them down as being too 'ordinary'.Years later and many pages turned it's a different story and I'll take this opportunity to say a huge 'Thank You' to Chris Bowen for being a constant source of knowledge and inspiration as far as my gendaito interest is concerned and also what a pleasure it is to hear your views George.

I have had some very nice swords in the past,Horii Hideaki,Mori Yoshichika and a lovely Endo Nagamitsu (cost me £400,shingunto mounts,mint original polish 68.5 cms),Horikawa Kunitake all now in other hands but currently a Yoshihara Kuniie (pic on bmoore's last Kanezane thread) and a Taguchi Masatsugu which I find fascinating because of the intricacy of the tempering.At first sight it appears to be a narrow suguha but in close it's like a row of tiny flames on a gas burner,worked in nioi and ko-nie.I cannot find an image of a recognised hamon in Hawley or any other resource to describe it but I have seen it on two other swords both by Yamaguchi Mitsuhiro (one I owned,the other was for sale in Australia),so they have in common the fact that they are both Saga smiths and also both studied under Kurihara Hikosaburo.I wonder if either of you (Chris,George) are familiar with that hamon and is it a product of the Akihide school?

[cabowen]

Hamon sounds interesting but no, not something specific to the Kurihara school....

 

Please post more info on the Kuniie please! I have always been fond of his work.

[george trotter]

You have had/still have some very good swords. Interesting what you say about the excellence of the hamon on the swords by Taguchi Masatsugu and Yamaguchi Mitsuhiro as they are of Saga. I can't say I have seen their work in hand unfortunately, but I did have a smith with what sounds like a very similar hamon. He was RJT smith Muto Hidehiro of Chikugo (adjoining Saga). It looked like chu-suguba but up close it was very "prickly" along the edge...perhaps a little more pronounced than your more subtle description, but possibly there was a regional similarity? You can see his postwar hamon in Ono "GTM" 1971 p.100... I think his postwar work was more standard suguba like Hizen school...don't know if this helps.

I know both your guys studied under Akihide. Someone once told me that Saga blades were good cutters (maybe you Chris?), and so I just looked up the cutting test results for the 1941 New Sword Exhib. in Slough p.225 and both are there. In fact of the 24 smiths listed, 5 are from Saga...including Masatsugu, "best", Mitsuhiro, "good" and their Tokyo teacher Akihide , "best" is there too.

 

As for regretting not buying some "ordinary" Yasukunito, I can say that those I had the opportunity to buy had rotten tangs.

On rotten tangs...I hope I'm not imagining this, but has anyone else noticed that of all WWII gendaito that pass through one's hands, the Yasukunito have a higher proportion of severely rusted nakago than other makers (some quirk of their tamahagane?).

Regards,

[cabowen]

I can't count how many rotten nakago I have seen on swords that ended up in Australia....Must be all that salt air....

[george trotter]

You may be right Chris...locality occurred to me too....I have only handled Australian souvenir swords...the humid climate in PNG where most of our fighting was done was the probable cause (vet oiled the blade but never took the tsuka off ), although to me rust seems more prevalent on Yasukunito nakago than other types IMHO. Looking in Tom Kishida's book it seems quite prevalent there too, but I don't know where the samples came from....just thinking out loud.

regards,

[chrisf]

You're probably right about that George,I understand the humidity is intense in that region and as many gunto appear to have a protective wrap like a bandage to cover the ito and provide a better grip it wouldn't be conducive to sitting and stripping it all off to wipe the nakago.

Tom Kishida's book was what enlightened me as regards the quality of Yasukunito,really excellent reference work that I've re-read several times.

The Kuniie was bought in a London saleroom a couple of years ago,it was quite funny really because it was originally catalogued as a katana by Takahashi Yoshimune!I requested images and there it was,Yoshihara Kuniie,a fabulous looking sword and better than any Yoshimune I'd ever seen,so accordingly left a bid without making any comment,then the morning of the sale about 30 minutes before it went under the hammer I received a call from the auctioneer saying they had made an error and that it was by Kuniie!

I just said," Yes,I know." Girl at saleroom "Oh.".So I ended up with it and like it very much indeed and can understand why you like them Chris,apart from anything else it has a great shape something that many gendaito definitely lack,it seems that while they were able to produce good jigane and hamon not many were able to produce good sugata,is that fair comment?

I've added a couple of pics which were those sent at the time,my photography skills are minimal probably not helped by my cheapo digital.

[george trotter]

Hi Chris,

Nice Kuniie...lucky find.

While saying never say never (or always) with nihonto, I think your comment is pretty fair. My star stamped blades are essentially gunto in sugata, but with the tosho's "school characteristics" being visible, ie the sugata conform to the RJT scheme rules for Army acceptance.

I have two blades with non-gunto sugata and these are both private order blades. Having said this, I am not put off by gunto sugata as that is a part of the history/era characteristic. A legitimate kantei point IMHO.

One army smith I have noticed who nevertheless always seems to produce a fine sugata is Hara Okimitsu of Shimane...judging from the few I have had in hand.

regards,

[cabowen]

Blades made for the military in WWII have a sugata that was appropriate to their intended usage. It isn't as elegant as earlier sugata. Of course there were also smiths without the skill to make a more pleasing shape. WWII era swords that are longer and more traditionally shaped are often made to order blades. Traditionally trained smiths with forging and hardening skills usually had the ability to properly shape the blade as well. Usually a blade with a crude shape is second class in other areas as well and often the work of a non-traditionally trained smith.

 

Remember that many WWII smiths were not traditionally trained- they spent 6 months or a year training and off they went. The better smiths were usually those with an extended training period under a master smith.

[george trotter]

I agree with what you say ChrisB, the shape and length etc is dictated by the usage and requirements of the time....in fact this is a distinct group of nihonto called gendaito gunto. After 1953 they began to return to the length and sugata etc of art swords. These in turn are also a distinct group with a different purpose and requirement...now called shinsakuto.

 

As for the short length of training and lack of skill (awkward sugata etc) of many WWII tosho, I think this is right, but I class them as gunto kaji (like most Seki gunto kaji). The RJT and Yasukuni tosho had proper training and in all the cases where I studied their individual history, they had quite respectable lineages, and in some cases going back quite a few generations. I don't think the two can be lumped together as many modern western and Japanese "traditional" collectors do....indeed, for many of these the "true" nihonto stops at 1868 and re-commences in 1953....a big mistake IMHO.

Just my opinion,

regards

[chrisf]

Again,I agree with you George,I have no problem with the normal gunto sugata it was just really nice to find a sword with good shape,that said the Masatsugu is quite pleasing.I've only had one Hara Okimitsu in hand,provincial saleroom and whipped off the tsuka and then slowly drew the blade,excitement building until I reached the bloody great fukure!

Have taken umpteen pics trying to get Masatsugu hamon and failed miserably but here's a look anyway...

[k morita]

Nice blade!!!

[k morita]

Here is a pic of Kuniie himself.

[george trotter]

Yes, nice sword indeed. It looks like my favourite battlefield length, about 62 cm?

Nice pic and translation Kiyoshi san.

I love the gendaito and its history!

regards,