Charlie C

若州住冬廣作 jakushu ju fuyuhiro saku

則宗 Norimune indeed

I am jealous as a kaga lover. Very beautiful indeed. The menuki, though mostly covered, doesn't seem to be in line with the major Goto line. Possible waki-goto? Maybe kaga-goto considering this is a kaga koshirae.

Thanks for sharing your communication Kevin! This is apparently a very humorous, modest, and wise gentleman you have been talking to. I just wanted to add a little bit of my personal observations, which as I said may well not be correct, on one thing: although menuki as a part of koshirae did exist during the Kamakura period, their form was quite different from what we now know as menuki, which emerged around the mid-Muromachi period. While I’m not aware of any archaeological discoveries, all surviving examples of Kamakura-era menuki tend to have highly formalized geometric or simple floral designs, rather than the more expressive and aesthetic motifs seen in later periods like yours. However, from the photos I wouldn't say this is a modern cast either. Hope other people could provide a more accurate timing.

Hi Kevin, A very interesting menuki pair! I am not an expert on menuki but have a great enthusiasm for it. The filled / not hollow back, the thickness of the plate, and the smoothness of the back all made me believe that this was made rather late, not early. Lacking studs is a hallmark of early Muromachi menuki, but this pair doesn't show any other signs of being made in that time. My personal guess is after 1800. It's quite possible my opinions are not reliable and I would also love to hear from real knowledgeable people out there. Best, C. C.

Hi Dee, I would say it probably doesn't matter in this case since the flow of both pieces is in the same direction. The direction of the body, not the head, usually determines the direction of the animal pattern. Best, C. C.

Hi Steve, A nice piece! Just want to point out that the understanding and translation of the original poem are somewhat divergent from the original intention, and the explanation unfortunately mixes up Chinese and Japanese culture, even though the two have a long history of rather asymmetrical communication. The original poem was written when Du Fu visited the tomb of the de facto founding father of the Tang Dynasty while the country was in turmoil. He recalled how the great emperor unified the country without excessive war and hoped the emperor's descendants could replicate their ancestor's achievement. The poem you referred to is 風塵三尺劒，社稷一戎衣 Even though the first word 風塵 can be literally explained as wind and dust, it actually means war here as a reference to Han Shu, "邊境時有風塵之警". 三尺劒 has nothing to do with 野太刀 (again, this is a Chinese poem) but just means sword. The first emperor of the Han Dynasty stated that he "提三尺取天下", hence 三尺 became a synonym for sword and a metaphor of leading military forces on one's own. 社稷 can be understood as the world as an object, and 一戎衣 though literally means 'a set of military uniform', but actually is another reference to the first emperor of the Zhou Dynasty, who "一著戎服而滅紂". So the whole sentence could be translated as "He defeated all rebellions with his own military talent, and the whole country can be at peace with minimum disturbance". Masculinity is definitely not the main point here. 覇気? Maybe, but *minimum* of haki is desired as the rex philosophus is not expected to be a warmonger in the traditional Chinese culture. Anyway, this is NOT in keeping with the Japanese 武士道 culture. Best, C. C.

Hi Luca, I am happy to translate some episodic pieces for you - I can also preview it a little bit since I currently do not have the book. Best, C. C.

Hi @zanilu, I have added the romaji. Thanks for your interest.

Thanks Gerant - it seems I misread a book, which specifically mentioned 霞象嵌 instead of the general nanako over hira zougan. Edo kinko is still somewhat novel to me, yet.

@Mantis dude Yes probably the shinsa team is the only one to give a solid answer if they would - unfortunately I was not into tosogu when I was in Japan and now I am into it but lost my Japan cell number. Your love for mantis is outrageous!! I didn't know that kaga people also do nanako on hira-zougan. I thought that was a unique technique by the Ichijo school. Nice collection! It always cheers when seeing similar pieces on books (or better, the same pieces).

Alright, I am convinced. I'd better buy a sponge to absorb future sulfur instead.

Thanks Franco, is Brian also on this forum? I am the kind of person who would rather not call people I have never met to consult...

Thanks Colin - I know this is the most rational option. I asked this because of this post , and the removal of silver sulfide on item 315 clearly has a pronounced effect. Of course Ford knows his job, I just wonder if other people also had similar experiences.

Dear Forum, I know that this is a rather controversial topic, but I wonder what your opinions are on the cleaning of the silver/shibuichi on antique tosogu, which often produces a quite unpleasant uneven dark grey/black tone tarnish (likely silver sulfide?). I am aware that it could be dangerous to make any move on them since these are often a very thin silver/shibuichi layer. I wonder how you determine if something is cleanable, and how you clean it if so. I found some discussion online using acidified thiourea or 5% hydrogen peroxide to remove the tarnish chemically, but I am not sure if they can be applied to tosogu. I would appreciate any suggestions. C. C.

Thanks @Curran! The comparison is really interesting. The kozukas are stunning. 金割継 is kind of common but with nanako on them is super rare. However, I prefer the kashira over these well-made kozukas - it brings one to the riverbank of Kanazawa. I can almost feel the breeze under moonlight on me blowing from 医王山 ...

@Mantis dude Thanks for your insights Ken! I do agree that using hira zougan is a major hallmark of the general Kaga school, but it doesn't seem to differentiate the Kaga Kinko and the Kaga Goto. For example, the Mizuno family in the Kaga Kinko school produced many pieces without using hira zougan (see this https://www.kanazawa-bidai.ac.jp/institute/miz/miz-edo/sum-mizuno01.htm), and Kuwabara commented that the Kuwamura family in the Kaga Kinko school produced better nanako-ji than some later Goto main strain masters (though I was not able to find any pics online). The Kaga Goto school also seem to employ hira zougan as frequently as other Kaga people. And you are right, the NBTHK often just (lazily) say Kaga Zougan instead of specifying Goto or not when hira zougan is massively used in a fitting. Unfortunately I do not have the Taiken book - am trying to find one not so expensive ... @Curran Amazing collection! So the pic above is 顕乗 and below is 徳乗? This is one of the reasons why I say the Kaga Goto thing is a mess: 顕乗、程乗、覚乗 and others each bring something of their own into this melting pot and blend with local tradition, making the descendants undistinguishable. The metal purity seems to be a promising criterion, if the Gotos are believed to have better shakudo then the Kaga Goto may also have better ones than their local pupils. However, considering that the 理兵衛 and 勘兵衛 masters only stay for no more than 6 months in Kanazawa each year, it would make an amusing scene if they always travel with some huge chunk of secretly made high-quality shakudo. Please post some more pics so we can see the comparison!!

下総住国俊 Shimousaju kunitoshi

Hi all, I've just joined this wonderful forum. It is so full of knowledgeable and kind people so I want to ask a question that has been haunting me for a while. We know that NBTHK assigns fittings to specific schools during the shinsa process without providing clear criteria. Some schools have more pronounced detectable features, like Ichinomoya and Ishiguro, while some don't. It can be especially confusing when multiple schools share similar features and I just do not know how NBTHK tells one from the other. For example, Kaga Kinko and Kaga Goto. The tradition of employing sword-fitting craftsmen in the Kaga clan starts when 前田利家 hires 後藤琢乘 (喜兵衛 school), then later 前田利常 hires 後藤顕乗 (理兵衛 school) and 後藤覚乗 (勘兵衛 school). There is another strain of self-claiming Goto school called 後藤清兵衛 or 後藤才次郎 who started to serve the Maeda family since 前田利常. Among these waki-goto masters, 後藤顕乗 and 後藤程乗 from the 理兵衛 school actually were 'promoted' to be the main strain master of the Goto family, so there are at least five different types of Goto styles that co-exist in the Kaga clan. They all contributed to mentoring other local craftsmen who were later known as Kaga Kinko, including the famous 水野 and 桑村 families. So here is my question: What does Kaga-Goto and Kaga-Kinko really mean? Kaga-Goto cannot be assigned based on quality because some 桑村 works are generally believed to be better than waki-goto works, and 桑村 are not members of Goto. Kaga-Goto cannot be assigned based on identity because some of the five Goto styles in Kaga should surely be identical with waki-goto in Kyoto. If so, what could be the criteria? It would be great if you could leave your thoughts or post photos of your Kaga-Goto/Kinko pieces. I would appreciate any input. Thanks. C. C.

A stunning piece... but why a former menuki?

Looks like a beautiful piece! However, 桑原羊次郎 proposed that the first person in the Goto family to add mei on menuki was 徳乗. Maybe there is newer research out there...

Just want to add two penies that using two metals for contrast in a pair of menuki is quite normal and popular after Ichinomiya Nagatsune started it. Any such case before him would be suspicious.