Charlie C

Menuki in the Edo era were rarely made from 24k gold, or even from 20k or higher (from my personal observation). From 14k to 18k seems to be a more reasonable range, and verdigris could develop depending on the storage conditions/specific composition of these materials.

I am glad to see that you have regained some of your professionalism. I have to point out that, again, the tsuba shown in the video was neither made in Ryukyu nor in the so-called 'Ryukyu style'. The tsuba was at most 'Somada style'. Not every MOP on lacquer is called 'Ryukyu style', and 七宝 (the geometric design) was not a Ryukyu design. The comparison you showed in the picture was not solid evidence to support the claim that this is a Ryukyu tsuba, in whichever definition. Let's end this what you called 'a stupid discussion', as you and I are both average bears. Average bear should not make statements about things bear doesn't know.

Come on, man, I don't want to be accused of anything more evil, and you don't have to be ALWAYS right. I give up. Hats off to you, Matsunoki. Still, This tsuba is almost identical to the one in the video, and it is not Ryukyu. It is Not every lacquer with small MOP inlay is 'Ryukyu lacquer'. The whole point I have been saying is that I have never seen a Ryukyu-style tsuba, and I would very appreciate it if you could enlighten me if you have any solid evidence. You just don't. You fed me with many Ryukyu-style other things and showed hostility against me for using a non-English language. I am sorry that the discussion made you quite emotional. I could be wrong too. Let's rest the case and continue one day when either of us has some solid evidence that there was a tosogu industry in Ryukyu applying MOP on tsuba.

Just for the information of this discussion, the links here refer to a 'Ryukyu style lacquer'. As good Rohan pointed out, there is a style of 'Ryukyu lacquer', which doesnot match the tsuba shown in the original video. My whole point was that the original tsuba was not Ryukyu-style lacquer, even though Matsunoki referred to it as such. I thought this forum cares about truth and details of techniques being applied to togosus, so I pointed out in the original reply that I would humbly ask Matsunoki to show us his rationale for identifying the tsuba as Ryukyu style. Instead of answering my questions, he only accused me of 'trying to look smarter'. Hard to imagine that the words are from a man who claimed that tosogu collection is about understanding. Anyway, I drop my case and apologise to anyone who feels hurt in the discussion. I have no intention of accusing anyone of being stupid, and I have never used such a dirty word in the discussion above. I sincerely recommend that dear Matsunoki handle the whole discussion with more dignity and professionalism, but maybe it's too late. Wish everyone a merry Christmas.

It seems that agent companies like Tenso still auto-collect the tariff (as I last checked last month), but sending packages directly through FedEx and UPS often bypasses it. I just received an update that my package cleared customs without me being asked for anything. A merry Christmas!

Maybe this technique is referred to as 'Ryukyu' in some villages in the UK, but not in the US or Japan. The technique shall be referred to as 螺鈿 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raden). The word 'Ryukyu' itself doesn't make any sense as a lacquer technique, at least in the lacquer world. If someone wants to maintain their linguistic purity on this Japanese-art-discussing forum, I am all for it. Ciao ciao, mon chéri!

Colin, I take full credibility of your experience and knowledge, but I stick to the opinion that this specific piece was more likely not 琉球漆器 as I failed to identify its hallmarks in the video. Attached is a similar tsuba made by the 杣田 school I mentioned.

You mean that your pieces were papered to be 琉球漆? I wonder if you mind sharing the kantei results as this is quite educational. I am still a newbie learning tosogu history and I just have not heard that there was a school applying this technique in 琉球. Many thanks.

Brian, I agree - I wasn't questioning that it was not lacquer, but it was not 琉球 lacquer. It was a common technique to use MOP on lacquer, but the only school I know that used it on tsuba is the 杣田 school, which wasn't based in 琉球. Sorry for not being clear in my original reply. 琉球漆, or what Colin referred to as Ryukyu lacquer, specifically refers to the lacquerware made in the 琉球 area, the place today known as Okinawa. I have some personal interests in lacquer and failed to find the hallmarks to connect the tsuba shown in the video with 琉球漆, so I wonder if Colin would share his deduction.

Not sure from what you deduced that this is 琉球 lacquer. The school famous for applying 螺鈿(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raden) on tsuba shall be the 杣田 school, which was employed by the 富山藩 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyama_Domain). I am actually not aware of any tosogu industry in 琉球 in the edo era, and it would be great if you could let me know your rationale. Thanks. Just to add a wikipedia https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/七宝紋

High or low quality, you should definitely do it if you find them interesting. Even a lowest-quality shattered tsuba can be very educational if someone identifies its style, era, etc. Most importantly, they are your collection and your heirs would supposedly at least want to know what you collected.

Hi Mike, It looks like a 花押(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huaya) to me, not a name written in Chinese characters. The back clearly indicates that it was used as a buckle, but also could be made as a very large menuki first then transformed into a buckle. Still, this type of large menuki was only made from the end of the Edo era onward. C. C.

My guess too, probably tourist type 鏡蓋 to be paired with tourist type 根付.

Probably 鏡蓋, a part of 根付. See this searching https://www.google.com/search?q=鏡蓋+根付&sca_esv=d499cf97fcbe8b52&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS677US677&udm=2&biw=1512&bih=827&sxsrf=AE3TifOnDG4Y9NZjGGlopdkdF0mDvSYd8g%3A1765727590764&ei=Zt0-aaGzLqbgp84P7fqQ8A4&ved=0ahUKEwih_sTut72RAxUm8MkDHW09BO4Q4dUDCBI&uact=5&oq=鏡蓋+根付&gs_lp=Egtnd3Mtd2l6LWltZyIN6Y-h6JOLIOagueS7mEiYIlDzA1jZHnABeACQAQCYAWGgAaUJqgECMTW4AQPIAQD4AQGYAgWgAqQDwgIHECMYJxjJAsICBBAAGB7CAgUQABiABJgDAIgGAZIHAzQuMaAHvg-yBwM0LjG4B6QDwgcFMC4zLjLIBw2ACAA&sclient=gws-wiz-img

What is 'museum grade' is really arbitrary, but I do agree that joy can be found in tosogu with heavy wear or in mint state. If the former one, I would imagine the warriors fighting with them on the battlefield (especially for those made before the Edo era); if the latter one, I would imagine they were made and cared for with extra attention and may have been appreciated during tea sessions or holiday parties

Thanks for your opinions and no offence taken. I believe that one has to read some basic kanji, at least the biggest big names here, to really enjoy collecting tosogu. As you mentioned in another post, understanding determines collection quality. I wouldn't imagine collecting Victorian era jewels without reading basic English. People are spoiled to think that English is a default for everyone and ignore that the pronunciation and their original characters are not the same thing at all for many non-roman languages. But I will add a corresponding English wiki, like good Rohan did, next time. Thanks for your feedback.

There was a little bit of Chinese style in all tosogu styles. The God of tosogu, 後藤祐乗, was influenced by his friend 狩野正信, and Chinese paintings influenced 狩野's style, whose major patron 足利義満 was a huge fan of Chinese art. In the Edo era, tosogu masters often collaborated with painters, and these painters could also receive direct/indirect influence from Chinese artists. For example, 一宮長常's collaborator 円山応擧, 大月光興's collaborator 岸駒, and 石黒政常 all received direct influence from the Chinese painter 沈南蘋.

An interesting hypothesis - the first member of the Kaga Goto who applied 平象嵌 onto tosogu seems to be 後藤演乗, who was alive in the same era as 政守. However I wouldn't be surprised if they had no connection at all, 平象嵌 as a technique had entered the Kyoto area for at least hundreds of years and it would be quite reasonable to conjecture that 政守 learnt this from some local workers whose names are lost now.

A beautiful piece! 細野政守 is famous for his 平象嵌 technique, but most of his work seems to focus on landscape scenery and folk stories. I would double check the signature before jumping into any conclusions, but this is a beautiful piece no doubt.

Hi Justyn, Beautiful piece! I am a 悦乗 fan so this looks extra cool to me. I think I have seen this motif somewhere else. Will reply again once I find it. Best. C. C.

Looks old to me. This photography style is quite iconic. I have never had any problem with this dealer's business.

冰清玉洁 as clean as ice, as pure as jade 陳胖製陶 pottery made by 陳胖 竹趣 fun of bamboo

Happy holiday season folks, Have a silver buckle for sale here. All the details and descriptions are on eBay. I would like to offer this piece to a fellow member of this forum for a discounted price of $200 before the new year. https://ebay.us/m/SC6FXI Please let me know if you have any questions or concerns. Best wishes, C. C.

Try to measure the density of this piece with water and see if it's higher than silver's density. I fear that it's nearly impossible to decide which school produced it, unless you send it for shinsa. They have a huge database that is accessible only to themselves.

It is indeed a strange phenomenon that silver is rarely used to make an entire menuki. On many occasions, people use 四分一 with a higher silver percentage, or even silver-gold alloy to produce the light silver tone. I suspected that silver might be too prone to oxidising, but people still use silver gilding and even silver 置金 on menukis, so I don't know why pure silver is a less popular choice. Maybe there was some Edo aesthetic thing that we couldn't comprehend today.