Tanto54

I really like Pete's F/K - looks like good carving. I think he summarized the "Shishi dropping its baby off a cliff" motif very well, but in response to Brian's request for a little expansion on the subject, I'd add the following. I think that this motif symbolizes overcoming adversity and the samurai's tough, spartan approach to training and various other pursuits. The Shishi mother drops her babies off a cliff and will only rear the ones that survive and climb back to the top. Having this theme on your sword would be a daily reminder to polish yourself and those in your charge through hard work and difficult training. Here's my katakiri-bori tsuba from Soyo II who also trained with Somin and was part of the Yokoya School - all the lines are fluid and cut without hesitation.

I believe that I remember hearing that the awabi (abalone) and himo (rope) is simply a toy (and dogs love to chew on rope), and the combination of dog (which means a safe birth) and awabi (which often stands for a human female) means to "continue the family line."

Come on guys, haven't you ever seen a Fukuro (Owl) before? It's sitting in a hole in a tree under the moonlight.

I believe that the subject of your kagamibuta is Benkei and Yoshitsune, and the subject of your kanemono is Ryujin (Dragon King of the Sea) presenting the Tide Jewels to Prince Ojin (relating to the Imperial line).

Dragon and Tiger often used to symbolize heaven and earth (or other Yin and Yang connotation).

Dear Brian, I can understand your desire to lock this tread, but I wish that you wouldn’t. I really am interested to know if these prejudices against offering swords (and soft metal and art tsuba) are really as prevalent as some would have us believe. While I try to choose the very best sword or kodogu that I can afford regardless of other’s prejudices, I am worried that if these biases are really wide spread, when I die, my wife will never be able to recover the obscene amount of money I’ve spent (and hope to spend...) on this passion.

Dear Chris, I don't want to get into it with you anymore. My post is right on topic. I suspect that the answer will shed light on the Temple's views about whether the object is a sword or not. I find it interesting in Thomas' post that a Temple's storehouse was often "raided", the swords used in battle and sometimes returned (and apparently accepted back by the Temple).

I remember reading recently (but I can't remember where) that a Westerner found and tried to return a nice sword that had been "looted" from a temple during the war. The temple rejected the sword because it was now "desecrated". Does anyone know this story and know the temple's reasoning for deeming the sword desecrated?

A recent thread has shook my foundational understanding of Nihonto. I’ve always considered the various masterpieces that were made as shrine or temple offerings as great Nihonto (not necessarily the oddly shaped or huge ones, but definitely the ones that are the same size, shape, etc. of a regular Nihonto). I believe that many of these offerings represent the very best of a smith’s work. We know by inscriptions on the nakago and various other documentary evidence that these masterpieces were made with the intention that they be an offering to a shrine or temple and not be used in combat. However, one of our members, who is usually considered an expert on things Nihonto, has said (I paraphrase): if the craftsman that made them did not make them to be USED as a sword, but rather as a “offering”, then they cannot be considered Nihonto [or even a “Sword”].... They can only be called sword-like metal sculptures....” What say you?

Dear Chris, you are not consistent in your logic or argument, so I guess it is pointless to continue. Listen guys, if tsuba were meant to stop swords, they'd be shaped like the small prongs of a jute. Chris, it's simply not fair for you to argue that modern art tsuba (that may not have been meant to be mounted but could still serve the purpose adequately) are not true tsuba, but then ignore the same logic applied to modern swords. While there are certainly shibayama tsuba shaped art and other okimono in the shape of a tsuba that are purely decorative, but the art tsuba that we are talking about could serve the purpose of a tsuba. Anyway, anyone who believes that the tsuba shaped objects (in Chris' terminology) made by masters like Natsuo and Shomin are not "tsuba" is simply ludaChris :D (Chris, next time I'm in Japan, we'll try you test and then we'll try one of mine so you can see how a weapon really works.)

Chris said Yes of course, but Chris, you also said that soft metal tsuba or the artistic tsuba that Ford (and Natsuo, Shomin, etc.) makes are not tsuba because they were not made primarily for the purpose of fighting another human (although you were apparently mistaken about the true purpose for a tsuba - hands sliding onto the blade instead of blocking sword strikes). Therefore, using your logic, those modern swords are not true or authentic because they were not made primarily for the purpose of cutting human flesh and bone. Any of Ford's (or Natsuo's) tsuba that I have seen would serve the purpose of a tsuba "if need be...." (to use your own words) You can't have it both ways.....

Dear Ken, that's exactly what Ford said in his post (Chris didn't post the whole thing). Ford said (just before the part that Chris quoted:

Dear Chris, many of the "authentic" "Japanese" swords and fittings (e.g., dainty sukashi iron tsuba, etc.) that you offer for sale on your own site would not meet the criteria that you are trying to impose on Western makers. In my personal opinion, anyone that relies on a tsuba of any material to block a sword strike is foolish. It's not that a thick iron tsuba couldn't stop a blade, instead it's that swords tend to rebound and not slide nicely down the blade to be caught on the tiny area of a tsuba. If we apply your "must be made for the real use" criteria, most modern "Japanese Swords" would fail because few of them are being made with the intention of cutting human flesh and bone. How many times have we seen, on this very site, modern practitioners taking about their specialized swords for Iaido (longer, shorter or lighter than would be used in a real battle because practice tears up their shoulders....) or the swords being tailored for Tameshigiri of mats (which many say approximate the human body, but I'm sure that if any of these practitioners were really going to design a sword to battle another human armed with a sword, they'd design it differently). Many of the mass produced swords from 600 years ago weren't designed or made for optimum performance; instead they were made to outfit the many low level combatants. Therefore, I don't think that you can fairly disqualify tsuba that have traded some small amount of functionality for beauty (or weren't made merely for battle).

Well said Alex. Dear Chris, in one of your earlier posts you said: For your analogy to be fair and fit this situation, we would have to imagine that there were French-made cars that were equal to German-made cars in terms of aesthetics, quality and price (I know, a very difficult stretch of the imagination - sorry Jean.....). But adding that condition when contemplating your quote above is fair in light of your admission that some modern Western-made kodogu equals that made by modern Japanese craftspersons. With that assumption in place, yes - your imaginary fellow in France who refuses to consider an equal French car and purchases a German-made car not because it is better but simply because it was made in Germany would be guilty of racism (and bad judgement). Please remember that I’m not talking about those that prefer antique or historical “cars” (kodogu or artifacts). Instead, I’m talking about your original post where the assumption was that the buyer was willing to purchase modern work, and it was simply a question of whether the maker was Japanese or not.

Dear KM, please reread Chris' Original Post - it is about modern Japanese people's work verses modern non-Japanese people's work. It does not include modern verses antique. Therefore, as I've said in each of my posts, I'm not looking at the consideration of antique (or historical) verses modern (I'm not trying to belittle history, its effect or those who are interested in it, I'm merely trying to avoid that Red Herring). Instead, Chris' original post (and my comments) are focused on: if you are willing to collect modern, what would be the justification for only collecting Japanese people's work (especially if some Westerners have assimilated the aesthetic and original methods and materials).

John, you misunderstand my comments about romantic Samurai history (but not my comment about Ninja wannabes which has nothing to do with true martial artists - which I aspire to be...). I am simply saying that if someone is collecting mainly because they like historical items, then I'm not speaking to them (and aesthetics and quality are probably secondary considerations; some collectors would rather have a sword that was actually used by a Samurai than have a sword that is superior in terms of quality and aesthetic that was not used by a Samurai, and that's OK, but it's not what I'm talking about). However, if someone is collecting because these swords and fittings are high-quality, beautiful works of art, then I'm speaking to them.

Chris, once you expanded on your definition and why you collect "Japanese Swords" (the "traditional training, methods and materials"), I believe that my point became clearer to you. Based on your new definition (it's not about the person, it's about the traditional training, methods and materials), if a Westerner who was trained in the traditional craft made a sword using traditional materials and methods in New York, then it would be a "Japanese Sword". I can respect that. Following your logic (like you did in your original post going from sword makers to fitting makers), I believe that you would now say that a Westerner who was trained in the traditional craft and made fittings using traditional material and methods in South Africa would be making "Japanese Fittings". Interestingly, I understand that most, if not all, Japanese (people) fitting makers in Japan are no longer smelting their own alloys for kinko works and are instead using modern prepared billets (not traditional materials). Therefore, the modern fittings made by those Japanese (people) fitting makers are not "Japanese Fittings" under your definition (because they are not using traditional materials or methods) and you would not buy or collect them. Conversely, I understand that Ford does do his own smelting, so if you purchase any modern kinko "Japanese Fittings", it can only be from Ford :D If each of us really investigates why he/she collects (e.g., it's the amazing results from using traditional methods and materials, attention to detail, aesthetic, etc.), and it's not just about the romantic Samurai history, then we should open our minds to swords and fittings made by non-Japanese if they are comparable in terms of quality, aesthetic and price. For the record, I'm not a friend of Ford's (but I'd like to be), I'm not an artist, and I'm not in the business of making or selling Japanese Swords or Fittings (or any similar items made by Japanese or non-Japanese people).

Chris, I believe that the term "Japanese Sword" is more like "French Fry" for most people. It is a type (of sword or potato) and does not necessarily designate who made it or where. In your definition, is it still a "Japanese Sword" if it were made by a Japanese craftsman while visiting in New York? What about a sword made by a descendant of a Westerner who has lived in Japan all his life, is trained in the traditional methods and made the sword in Tokyo? We are varied group - some art lovers, some scientists, some martial artists, and some Ninja wannabes, but we better wake up and see the true intrinsic value of things (or we'll never realize that the "Emperor has no clothes" like the others ogling elephant dung spread on a canvas at the Met just because someone else classified it as art). If we are honest (and not just romantics reveling in the Samurai/Ninja myth), we should value the better made sword or more appealing fitting regardless of who made it, when or where.

Hi Markus, yes the later part is a date, but I was really referring to the two kanji at the top - "Kaminari Yoke" (George Trotter caught my poor pun....) Like Sasaki Kojiro-san's "Clothes Rod"

How about this one? What a shocker!!!! Raiyoke

As you may be able to see from my avatar, the combination of lion dogs (shishi) and peonies (Botan) is a popular motif in Japanese art. You can search Shishi Mai (lion dog dance) or Shishi Botan for more information. The flower is definitely a peony (Botan). My understanding of the meaning of this pairing is different than the one previously offered. The combination symbolizes bravery and elegance and represents the spirit of the Samurai. Legend says that the lion dogs loved to eat these flowers so they are often seen together. In addition, the peony is considered the "Queen of Flowers" and the shishi is considered the "King of Beasts" so the combination is also a good yin/yang. There is also the legend of Shakkyo and Monju Bosatsu which has a shishi that prances around a peony (that's why you often see the shishi dancing around a peony on larger surfaces like tsuba).

For what it's worth, I'd agree with the previous comments about low value. As additional information, I can tell you that the subject is Tenaga ("Long Arms") and the saya (scabbard) is missing a lot of its decoration. The arms (which appear to be missing their forearms and hands) of Tenaga would have continued further up towards the hawk (which also appears to be missing a beak and other parts). You can see where these pieces are missing. You can find more on Tenaga if you search "Ashinagatenaga" ("Long Legs & Long Arms") which is the name for these two creatures of Japanese Mythology usually seen working together. Tenaga is often depicted riding on Ashinaga's back using each of their elongated features to best use (e.g., standing in deep water while Tenaga grabs a fish from the water).

Takafuji means "Tall Wisteria" and would be someone's last name. Kôto means "Emperor's City" and would, in this case, probably mean Kyoto.

Hi Lynne, I love the first tsuba. The second tsuba depicts Tekkai Sennin, one of the many “immortals” from Chinese legend adopted by the Japanese. He had the ability to breath out his soul and allow it to travel to other realms. Once he stayed away too long, so his pupil, thinking him dead, cremated his body. Upon his return, Tekkai Sennin was forced to inhabit the nearest available body (a recently deceased lame beggar). He is usually depicted as an emaciated, lame beggar leaning on a cane with his head turned to the side blowing out his soul.

Bump for any additional information or opinions....