Jussi Ekholm

Thanks for the report Emil, must have been a wonderful experience.

I cannot comment on the construction style debate as it goes well above my knowledge. I think there might be even various views by experts in Japan on the subject too. For Tōken Bijutsu if there will be magazine number provided I can check the article. There are some extremely technical articles in the magazines over the years but as that is not that interesting to me personally I haven't noted them down and with 600+ magazines in shelf finding some randomly takes bit too much time. However Jacques is correct regarding Nihontō Meikan. It is focused purely on documenting swordsmiths. To bring the discussion little bit back to original topic. I think sometimes even extreme rarity is not valued that highly compared to established smith that are considered to be at high level. Here is a link to a tachi that is so far the only item of Yamato smith Yoshimasa (吉正) that I have been able to find. As you can see even the experts have slightly varying views as NBTHK goes for Senju'in and Tanobe goes for Tegai. Of course not huge difference in the attributions. The sword might not win any beauty prizes but I would much rather have it than just another Tadahiro katana for example. It also comes down to preferences in valuation. The big Japanese dealers are extremely knowledgeable on prices and getting huge deals will be difficult as they know the market most likely much better than us. However I think pricing one of a kind items might be extremely tricky, there are lots of old smiths by whom signed remaining work is extremely difficult to find. However they can be gotten much much cheaper than Nagamitsu, Rai Kunitoshi etc. from whom there are well over 150+ signed examples remaining to this date.

I was happy to read the posts in the thread and learning many things from here, even though some advanced info is difficult to grasp and understand. I know I chose Hizen Tadahiro as an example and I do not understand nearly enough about Hizen to say anything, that is why it is interesting to read the advanced posts. This might seem really ignorant thing to say but personally for me all of the 3 Tadahiro swords in my example looked pretty much them in overall. Now after reading the great posts that discussed the swords in detail I am able to realize some differences but not enough to me personally. In overall I would agree that the one with the cutting test would have best quality, however I still like the one with horimono more. I think the cutting tests are very rare and they add a lot of prestige to the blade. I feel it might have potential to advance in NBTHK rank, however the more I look into Jūyō items the less I seem to figure out why some items pass... To me it seems extremely complicated and the NBTHK standards today might not be the same as they were 20-30 years ago for example. I like to have actual reference examples in discussions as I find it helpful and I hope others will find it too. While theoretical examples are sometimes fun, discussing some actual items is fun too. I did a small search on Tadahiro swords that are currently in the available market, I think I found something around 25-30 swords quite easily. However I found only 1 Jūyō sword currently for sale. Of course these are all just online listings by dealers with modern NBTHK papers, and the actual number of authentic swords for sale is a lot higher. There are so many Hizen Tadahiro swords surviving to this day I can't even guess the total number. Of course big battles and wars were not going on during the Edo period. Here is the sword from Jūyō session 50 that is being currently sold for 6,6M: https://iidakoendo.com/4573/ Of course Iida pictures are always like this and you can't really say anything from it. Personally I am not wowed by that particular sword at all and I would take the 2M sword from Aoi with horimono over this one, if purely going for personal taste. With items like this you will probably need very high Hizen knowledge and appreciation to really get the most out of them. Items like these are not for me, I have understood that fine details are not for what appeal to me (which might be contrary to high level Japanese sword appreciation). Now here is a TH sword that to me is absolutely amazing. It comes with a price tag of 5,8M and is joint work of Tadahiro and Mutsu Tadayoshi: https://www.kusanaginosya.com/SHOP/164.html This sword looks amazing to me immidiately when I look at it. I would choose this rather than the above Jūyō without blinking an eye. Of course impossible to fully judge and understand from pictures but I would feel sword like this might have a shot at Jūyō, as it seems to me to be high quality craftsmanship combined it being a joint work. For the fun ending and coming back to reality if I would by miracle some day choose trying to get a Hizen sword it would most likely be around the "lower" level item like this Hozon example wakizashi tagged at 580k yen. https://www.toukenkomachi.com/index_ja_tachi&katanaA040324.html As I don't really appreciate Hizen or Edo period items I cannot justify putting money from small budget towards something I would not want. And I posted this item to also show that you can find even signed items by some famous smith for reasonable amount of investment. Of course with the lower investment you will not get the best quality items but it is only normal. It is fun to see how huge the range is for Hizen Tadahiro and you can definately find something from low-mid-high tier to satisfy you Hizen desire.

There have been excellent posts made above. I think I will just expand this with various examples, as I will have plenty of those to add substance to some of the various points made in posts made to this thread. I made the Hizen Tadahiro comparison just to show some variety. Given they would all be priced equally I would personally choose the one with horimono & koshirae. However these swords are all of size and shape that I would not buy. To me personally I do not find this shape & size interesting and I would look for something else. Like Jacques I don't like to talk about the price of items that much. Of course I am in fortunate/unfortunate spot I cannot buy anything for several years, so for me it would all be speculative stuff anyways. And I do think sometimes we might get too attached to attribution the sword has been papered to or the level of papers by organization etc. Historical provenance is highly sought after, yet blades with proven historical provenance are pretty difficult to obtain to the collection. I am currently doing lots of research on provenance of famous old swords and there are still lots and lots of blades that have varying from of provenance. Sometimes I am not absolutely certain how the Japanese experts can connect the dots on some swords & provenance but I bow to their authority. I have only quite recently started being fascinated with this and there is so much to research and learn, I am bit shamed to admit I have previously overlooked this subject. Blades with proven provenance will be available for buying but they are often high quality items which of course puts them in expensive price bracket. I completely agree what @dyn @Mushin wrote about zaimei & mumei earlier in the thread. However there can be curveballs where other factors override the signature. For the smith Rai Kunitoshi, here is a signed tantō: http://web.archive.o....net/SHOP/O-225.html that was listed for 2,7M asking price, and here is a mumei tantō attributed to him: https://eirakudo.sho.../tanto/detail/750496 that was 3,5M asking price. Both items being Tokubetsu Hozon, and in my opinion they are now at their current end level with NBTHK classification. I couldn't see either of them going any higher. Small disagreements with attributions are perfecly understandable, as kantei for mumei blades is extremely difficult. Something like Mihara Masaie vs. Aoe I could very well understand. Here is another example that I found interesting as it was long very old tachi https://yushindou.com/生ぶ無銘太刀（伝古青江）（古波平）白鞘/. NBTHK attribution was Ko-Naminohira and NTHK attribution Ko-Aoe. Now while they might seem very different to me there is not too big difference between them. If I would had somehow acquired that item, would had been fun to send to Tanobe for 3rd opinion and see what he thinks of it. Unfortunately I am not yet that aware of NTHK attributions and I only have 1 of their 4 Yushu books. I plan to get all of them some day. However there are items with both NBTHK and NTHK attributions. Some of the famous so far might be Norishige tantō, Motoshige tachi, Yasumitsu tachi that are both Tokubetsu Jūyō and NTHK Yushu. Also I think there will be very high level experts in Japan even if the old guard passes. Of course often in Japanese way the students feel they can never surpass their teachers. However I would give props to modern generation of NBTHK staff too, reading the Jūyō setsumei, Tōken bijutsu magazine etc. I feel comfortable with their expertise as it far surpasses mine. Also what I have heard there are multiple unaffiliated experts in Japan too, and they teach too, so I feel confident the next generation of sword researchers keep it going. I have never met any of the top Japanese experts, just read their knowledge from books and I think same will happen in the future too. While the old experts had/have their mountain of knowledge, they were generous in sharing it and we have ever expanding amount of data in various easy to access forms currently. While it is possible some information will be gone, there are new things being discovered and researched.

It is very complicated subject and sometimes the asking price can be whatever the seller decides it to be. In ideal world the sword should be the deciding factor for price. However things like apprasing organization, who the dealer is etc. will of course affect the price. Likewise the perceived value & rank of swordsmith to whom it is appraised to for mumei items for example. If you get a desirable attribution from NBTHK the price will go up, get a lower tier one you might have difficulties in getting a good price. As it currently stands NBTHK appraisals have a huge impact in the market. You get attribution to a top smith for a mumei blade, it will be very valuable with just Hozon certification. Then another mumei sword with lower attribution even if it would have passed the Jūyō shinsa it might not be at the same level in pricing. Here are few items to show some differences Hizen Tadahiro is a very famous smith, here are 3 sword by him, all 69-70cm. Prices are 1M 2M 3M yen and all the items are Tokubetsu Hozon by NBTHK. I do not know much about Hizen as I focus on early stuff but I know which from these three I would personally pick up if price was not a factor. https://www.aoijapan...kubetsu-hozon-token/ https://www.aoijapan...kubetsu-hozon-token/ https://www.aoijapan...kubetsu-hozon-token/ Here is the mumei Jūyō vs. Tokubetsu Hozon to show bit what I was talking earlier. Jūyō Senjuin is 3,5M yen and Tokubetsu Hozon Ko-Kyōmono is 8,5M https://eirakudo.sho...katana/detail/289562 https://eirakudo.shop/084932 Truth to be told I do not like either of them that much. There are dozens of much cheaper items that I would rather take than either of those two. However it is just variation in appreciation and possibly my lack of fine refined taste.

Now I am someone who collects sword books, yet still I wouldn't recommend getting a huge amount of them in the beginning. Getting some is perfectly fine and recommended, just blowing thousands of dollars on books in the beginning is not really feasible. However to me personally owning a huge reference library is more benefical than owning a Jūyō sword. Unfortunately here in Finland the reality of having hands on experience with high quality items is extremely rare. Getting to meetings in Europe would be one way to go but as travelling is somewhat expensive, I plan to cut travelling in Europe to extend my yearly visit to Japan. Here are some things that for me are facts about books vs. real life. - Even in Japanese museums the items might not be perfectly presented, and at least with my eyesight & eye for details, it doesn't always work out with fine details. I am happy as overall shape & size is my main thing but I struggle with small details. - With books you can spend as much time viewing and studying as you like. Even though I spent a lot of time at few shrines looking at their awesome items, having the books of their collections I can open them any time I like and do research with plenty of time and other books for extra resources. - It is somewhat rare occasion to be able to study multiple items by the same smith side by side. In various NBTHK-EB meetings this has been possible for me. Tōken World in Nagoya has the most swords I have ever seen at one place. However due to their layout their items are scattered in various rooms and display cases. For example they had 4 Rai Kunitoshi blades, 3 Chōgi etc. however difficult to compare the items. Then as I have huge amount of books I can pull a massive amount of Chōgi blades side by side and have a good study with all the background info about the items featured in books. Of course seeing the items in person would be amazing but having the possibility to pull huge number of items by smith X to study is amazing, even though pictures and text only. However I do think Jacques is correct in some things. - It is a fact that enthusiasts in Japan have the opportunity to advance knowledge very fast. I have personally seen friends advance really fast with access to top class teachers with super high knowledge. That way you will learn things that would be next to impossible to learn just from books. - In order to understand kantei you need to see and view swords (with a teacher if possible). My own knowledge is theoretical vs. real knowledge as I have not seen enough items in hand. So always it is extremely nice opportunity to view swords with the owner, or experienced people who can tell more about the sword(s). I would strongly recommend reading the forum a lot, there is a lot of knowledge in this forum and threads. I think having an open mind to learning is important. Often when visiting here I learn something new, I remember reading few nice tidbits even this current week that I try to remember in the future.

I feel you had wonderful experince Lewis. Many people me included would love to experience things like this, and I am very happy you are posting info about the items and pictures to the community. Uncovering items and studying them is something that is very rare to experience. Personally I would not be that stressed about the quality of the items, just the experience in general would be a special one. Even though some blades would not be what they were described to be, they could still be nice items in general. It is extremely difficult to judge from just the picture of the mei alone. I do think the Kanesada could very well be a plausible signature. I am not liking the Sadatsugu / Masanori signature. I am not liking the Yukihira signature either, I could think that if it is a legitimate signature it might be some unknown much later Yukihira. Of course this is all just speculation based on single picture of signature and I am not even well versed on any of the smiths in question. Still in general it is extremely fun to research and look into the subject together as a group

For signatures I would guess 1. 兼貞 - Kanesada 2. 備州長船XX / 天正XX年八月日 - Bishū Osafune XX (c.1573-1592), cannot identify smith or year with certainity. 3. 越前国下坂貞次 / 大和大掾藤原正則 - Echizen no Kuni Shimosaka Sadatsugu / Yamato no Daijō Fujiwara Masanori 4. 行平作 / Yukihira Saku

Franco is correct that there are probably many swords that are saiha that we are not aware of. After the process they would fulfill their purpose as weapons again. There are also some famous swords that have been reforged as fired caused damage in period Japan. However for more basic weaponry it would not be documented that well. I have seen some great saiha blades, and I would not have the knowledge to tell they have been reforged. Nikkō Tōshōgū has had modern smiths reforge some of their burned blades and the end result looks very good. They had a rotation of 3 tachi per turn and all of the 3 that I saw this year and 3 that I saw last year were all reforged in 1980's.

Wonderful Arnaud! Will have to do better reading with time and some of the info is too advanced for me to grasp. Great article!

I understood Hamfish and I agree with you. I was just curious if someone knows if Compton had this type of sayagaki for some of his items. There have been several of them in Yahoo Japan, and I would guess they got at least the idea from somewhere. Unfortunately I haven't got books about Compton collection, and so much time has gone by since his passing. I do know that he was extremely well regarded in Japan and I feel there would be a prestige having an item that was once in his collection.

Definately very unknown smith. There is a Mototsuna smith who signed - 伯耆国汗入郡岡村住元綱 and he is listed working around 元治 (1864-1865). Unfortunately I cannot provide any signature of item references for this smith.

I am liking Jan's thought of it being a named sword.

Thanks Steve that is extremely valuable info and I have thought incorrectly before.

I do not know if WA Compton had items with English sayagaki, but there was one Kiyomaro on Yahoo JP with similar sayagaki a while back. Of course these items surfacing at Yahoo JP instead of higher profile dealers could be a question mark.

My guess is it is a hira-zukuri wakizashi that is original length.

Thank you Eric and Thomas. The ōdachi of Mori Ranmaru, is 105 cm blade length and is believed to be made by Kanabō school. It is remarkable sword and perfectly in the usable range. Unfortunately I haven't yet got this sword featured in any of my books and haven't yet seen that personally. It is amazing that the sword also has the koshirae, so amazing complete package. I am an ōdachi fanatic and so far I have info on 100+ swords, I have been lucky and focused in my travels that so far I have seen 26 ōdachi in Japan. I will definately plan a visit to Honnō-ji to see the Mori Ranmaru ōdachi in the future. The ōdachi that Jacques posted is actually made by Miya Masayoshi in 1843, and it is Prefecture Bunkazai of Yahiko-jinja. It is super large sword (not usable) it has blade length of 224 cm and nakago is 93 cm. Unfortunately I haven't been able to visit Yahiko-jinja yet, as they house 2 super big ōdachi in their collection. https://www.e-yahiko.../old/bunkazai/17.htm Huge thanks for the pictures of the sayagaki of this Rai Kunitoshi tachi. I have never encountered that before in any references and it seems like a very important sword. Also with c.80 cm length it is the longest Rai Kunitoshi tachi I know apart from the missing ōdachi.

On the Tokyo National Museum display problem, they have so many amazing items that they will need to circulate items. I have fairly recently checked in the Bunkachō database and I believe TNM houses 18 Kokuhō swords and 56 Jūyō Bunkazai swords (number for JB can be bit higher as I didn't check Late Muromachi or Edo period stuff), along with hundreds of other amazing swords. It would be amazing if they could display huge amount of swords at once, like Tōken World in Nagoya. However the National Museum needs to display a wide variety of Japanese history and art/culture.

My guess was based on the length and shape alone, and reason for my guess is that Saburō Kunimune has relatively high number of 75cm+ tachi remaining. To me the sword looks to be a good bit longer than others that I would guess being c. 65-70 cm in length. Would be very interesting to know the measurements and more information of that Rai Kunitoshi tachi, as I was not aware of that sword and it could be the longest tachi by Rai Kunitoshi remaining, as the ōdachi (蛍丸) Hotarumaru is missing. Also the provenance on it is remarkable Toyotomi Hideyoshi - Tokugawa Family - Maeda Family. For the Muramasa the signature can be seen in your pictures, however based on the blade I would not have guessed Muramasa. Without your original listing of names I don't think I would have gotten any correctly. I would be very grateful on info about that particular Rai Kunitoshi tachi if anyone has it, or even more than that the ōdachi that was featured in Daihouden exhibition. I believe this might have been the ōdachi as I believe this is in the collection of the temple? Picture is from Twitter. https://x.com/honnou...495691476992/photo/1

While I do not know the fine inner workings of NBTHK, I would not think specifics of hi in general would stop swords. There are actual cases where the sword has been altered between Jūyō and Tokubetsu Jūyō shinsa and the sword has passed Tokubetsu Jūyō. Of course for that specific sword it might have been that something particular on that hi threw off the judging panel. NBTHK sometimes seems to be flexible on their standards and sometimes very strict. For examples some saiha (rehardened) blades have passed Jūyō. Latest example that is have good info on is the named sword Hachiman Masamune 八幡正宗 in session 68. However the sword has huge background info and provenance. That historical provenance is something I am just now starting to get into and it is super fascinating. I actually spent 14 hours last weekend researching background of some shrine & museum swords. The famous Kōsetsu Samonji has been in Japanese experts opinion shortened c. 10 cm from original length. It is very famous sword I just checked I have it featured in 24 different reference books/magazines. I believe the Catawiki sword would be in original length. To me it looks like the tachi mei it had has been removed. NBTHK passed it as Kōdai Hōju - Later Hōju (後代宝寿). While Hōju can be seen as Kamakura - Nanbokuchō work, when NBTHK puts 後代宝寿 in brackets they put it towards Muromachi period work. So it would most likely not be the Kamakura period sword that was advertised. Still I am bit puzzled why NBTHK did not pass it as mumei tachi but went for mumei katana.

Thank you for very throughout reply Tumi. It was very enjoyable to read and gave us a lot of background information. Was also nice to read the article the Lewis B mentioned, to get to know you bit better. I think one "free" thing to add might be an activity corner of some kind. Of course having never been into your museum I do not know the layout, just looking at the pictures online it seems your sword displays are top notch. I think some kind of activity area might appeal to general people, for example at Atsuta-Jingū you could try to lift up the replicas of their famous ōdachi, Tarōtachi and Jirōtachi, and average katana in comparison. In the new Nagoya Tōken World there is also section for holding a sword & gun. Perhaps you could feel different tsukamaki types/bare rayskin handle etc. As I believe you have craftsmen working in the premises, there might be lot of things you could do, that might appeal to general public. I am far too deep in this hobby to really understand what general public wants to see and learn.

My guess for N.6 would have been Bizen Saburō Kunimune but I know that is wrong answer, now that I know what the sword actually is.

I got the book last year that features this sword. If I read correctly NBTHK just states that there is bo-hi & soe-hi carved on both sides. Now one thing to consider that as the sword is judged as ō-suriage and no ana in the lower portion of the tang, I feel that would indicate that it would have been at least 15+ cm longer originally. As the sword is now 69,3 cm katana with 17,8 cm nakago it would in my assumption have been 85+ cm tachi. For me it is often difficult trying to grasp the original shape of shortened items. I believe the Jūyō Bunkazai Norishige I posted above has been shortened c. 13 cm which would made it around 85 cm tachi originally as the current length is 71,5 cm. The longest ubu Norishige tachi I have found is mumei attributed to Norishige and it is 79,1 cm.

My thoughts might be bit all over the place but I am super happy you are looking for feedback from international members. Unfortunately I have not yet visited Bizen Osafune Sword Museum but I will in the future. My biggest wish to all museums, shrines etc. in Japan would be that they would list all the items in their collection on their website. Of course that is a huge task but I feel even us not able to visit the museum could enjoy the items. I would be perfectly happy with all Japanese short listings and basic picture of item. Of course this is just my own personal preference as I am addicted in researching items. I feel that way people could enjoy the items. I can take an example of Bizen Osafune Sword Museum, unfortunately so far I only have info of 3 of your swords, 山鳥毛, 78,9 cm Kanemitsu 兼光, and 69,1 cm Yoshioka Ichimonji tachi SukeX 一備□吉岡住助. You have amazing current exhibition going on: https://www.city.set...site/token/1315.html I would want info on items 16-29 and 38 & 36-2 37-2. However unfortunately I only have info on 18, 24, 36-2, 37-2 so far. Also I appreciate greatly that you have info on old exhibitions available https://www.city.setouchi.lg.jp/site/token/list7-251.html Would it be possible to include the listings of items similarily to the current exhibition? I am very happy you have the Morimitsu ōnaginata on loan for the latter part of the exhibition. I love ōdachi and ōnaginata and I hope museums could display them if possible. Of course they do take up a lot of space and I suppose majority would rather see something else as they are not that popular. Personally I don't care about the descriptions that much, just to be able to view the amazing items is my goal. Some shrines for example have sometimes extremely limited info on items, descriptions put to wrong item etc. However they house some amazing items that you cannot see anywhere else. Of course I admit I fall into fanatic category and I feel what I enjoy is not enjoyable to general public. I feel other members have given excellent advice above.

I hope you can get better pictures of the sword. I think it could possibly be fairly nice late Muromachi period blade.