Jussi Ekholm

I don't think Rayhan is saying anything that he couldn't reasonably explain where he stands for with good explanations. I wouldn't personally invest money on this sword. In my opinion the vast majority of Japanese swords can be polished, however it is another thing if it is economically reasonable at all to get them polished. Unfortunately I don't know the correct terminology for such horimono placement if there is a specific term. I do think I have seen it done few times, as if there is bo-hi present there is really no other space for carving. Unfortunately I have too many references and I cannot easily find them as I don't remember them well. Here is one historically important naginata-naoshi attributed as work of Yoshioka Ichimonji Sukemitsu, it is signed and dated. However I cannot personally stand the horimono... https://web.archive.org/web/20220112040404/https:/www.aoijapan.com/wakizashi-ichi-bishu-yoshioka-jyu-saecut-after-that/ I was actually thinking/dreaming about buying this one when it was 1,500,000 yen. It has passed through 4 dealers and was 3,500,000 yen at highest asking price I've seen, and latest one was the 2,200,000 yen it was listed at Aoi. It is historically super important item but for my personal collection I would rather have unimportant item that I personally love. Here is a Jūyō sword that I personally dislike because of the carving. It is a signed tachi by Bizen Nagamitsu and most likely a good sword but I cannot get myself to like the sword. https://web.archive.org/web/20230203101526/https://www.samurai-nippon.net/SHOP/V-1979.html This one has also passed through at least 4 different dealers with fluctuation in price, latest one being 11,000,000 yen.

I think it is totally understandable that there are several different forums and closed groups floating around various places. In my ideal world there would be just 1 huge meeting place where everyone would get together and share info freely. Of course real life doesn't work like that... People are people and not everyone will get along, and there are probably studies on why certain groups will form etc. Just checked that my membership here at NMB is closing in 18 years, and to be honest this is one of my favorite places online and has been for a long time. I hope to be a member in here as long as the forum is up. I have met so many amazing people through this forum online and some I have even met in person in various places. I admit that I am too grown into the forum that I feel quite puzzled how people are not joining in for gold membership at such cheap overall price. For me it is about the community in here, maybe the difficult thing is getting the new folks feeling welcome in the community.

The dragon horimono style is called 珠追龍 - Tamaoi Ryū.

My best guess might be 法師 hōshi - priest.

I believe the end of mei is Buddist name Kōshin 法名光心

Here is the item, I believe the actual date is Shōwa 4 正和二二 judged with current research, the old book just has a small error on the date. Unfortunately cannot say anything with real substance about the signatures.

The blue one is Jūyō Bijutsuhin that is currently owned by Kurokawa Research Institute.

My guess would be 正和二 & 正和三 Shōwa 2 & 3 (1313 & 1314)

Some of the high quality Chinese made Japanese swords would fool me personally, if I wouldn't know the origin. I think they show high level workmanship and are of good quality. I haven't personally owned any Chinese made items of this quality but I have owned lot of low-mid level Chinese made stuff and some of them were actually quite nice, and extremely nice vs. the money invested in them. Here are two such examples. https://www.swordcn.com/Naginata-Wakizashi-（Cherry-blossoms-koshirae）by-Zsey-p290841.html https://www.swordcn.com/Muramasa-Wicked-Katana-Sword-Replica-by-Zsey-p290846.html

I believe with swords the name 通明 would more commonly be read as Michiaki. The three yari you linked seem to belong to Goryo jinja in Fukuchiyama city.

The discussion is good and there are several good views. There is nothing really wrong in suriage Shintō swords. However I think you must understand how much value you will put on the item. For some smiths you can find hundreds of signed blades and suriage blades are unfortunately not on top of the list. Then you need to weigh long swords, short swords, possible polearms etc. It is actually quite confusing for people starting out. I am fairly long time member of NBTHK but my interests in swords do not really align with the interests of the organization. I like stuff that they don't appreciate that much and for me it is ok. I know what I like and to me it feels good but I wouldn't recommend going so far out of the "norm" for anyone. I do think the traditional sword appreciation is bit hierachical you are supposed to like certain things because it is traditionally accepted. I think the "mainstream" collecting is safest and in general the best option. Also I feel that when the talking goes to Jūyō swords and what is acceptable and not, then it gets to actually bit advanced stuff and I think new collectors maybe shouldn't be too stressed about that stuff in the beginning. Jūyō stuff is actually very complicated in my opinion and I believe I am not the only one. Sometimes it is very puzzling. For example in the session with 3 Tomomitsu passes at Tokubetsu Jūyō, one of them was historical Masamune of Yasukuni jinja. Now NBTHK attributed the sword as Tomomitsu and it went through their whole system and finally at the top TJ. Last 2 years it was not on display at Yasukuni jinja because it was in the NBTHK process but I finally got to see it this summer. Yasukuni jinja displays it as Masamune as it has historically been, I feel they disregard NBTHK opinion on this. Now is it Masamune or Tomomitsu I cannot say but I feel in overall quality the sword is not super nice, however it has very large historical value.

I think one difficult thing with Aoe is that there are literally hundreds of NBTHK mumei Aoe attributions and the range is huge. Of the examples in this thread in my opinion number 5 is the best. It is Jūyō 21 session, and good quality sword. Unfortunately the shape and size is not what I would be after. For me number 3 would be second butI do not have enough info on that sword to say anything of importance. These might be only 2 I might look for but unfortunately I believe both carry a decent price tag which they deserve. It is rough to say but I would put 1,2,4,6 in the same bucket and they are not interesting to me personally. Yeah I know two of them are Jūyō swords but many Jūyō swords are uninspiring to me. However if would have to buy an item out of these I would mostly look into number 2 as it seems to be decent item for the price. Still I would rather put the same money into some other sword than this Aoe. You can see good quality image of Aoe 5 here: https://web.archive.org/web/20240113073202/https://www.aoijapan.com/img/sword/2023/23761-2.jpg

I think Rayhans advice that has been discussed is very good for high level sword collecting. Some wording he has used might be bit provocative and ticking people off. However the issue might be that there are different levels of collecting. To me it has seemed in recent threads that it is difficult for people of varying collecting levels see eye to eye. What is seen as a no go in high level collecting could be perfectly accessible sword in lower level of collecting. For a brain teaser people can think 15 Kongōbyōe swords vs. Mumei Tokubetsu Jūyō Rai Kunitoshi. I know high level collectors would pick the TJ Rai Kunitoshi and I would choose 15 Kongōbyōe, it is just a matter what you feel is correct to your personal collection. Life would be boring if everyone would just want to buy the same swords.

Unfortunately I am not aware of the actual price of the Kanenori ōdachi that landed at Nagoya Tōken World. It was at Christies auction few years ago with koshirae and Tokubetsu Hozon paper (which are not mentioned at Tōken World website and koshirae was not featured at display) https://www.christies.com/lot/lot-6417474?ldp_breadcrumb=back&intobjectid=6417474&from=salessummary&lid=1 It was not sold at the auction, so nobody was willing to probably go for 30-35,000$ for it at that time. I remember for a while I had a wild thought that I might try to buy it some day and try to make a lower offer on it... Actually now I might be happier to see that the sword landed at Nagoya than to me and historically it is nice too. The museum had very nice special exhibition of Inuyama swordsmiths, of course quality wise that was not in par with their special exhibition I saw in 2024 but there was actually amazing theme going for it. Maybe some day when visiting I will see the amazing Mikazuki Kanemitsu they acquired for huge amount of money, it will most likely be splendid sword but I might still like this basic ōdachi over it. So I might end up liking 30,000$ sword more than 1 million+ $ sword. Of course in traditional appreciation they are on totally different level and I understand that that particular Kanemitsu tachi is of much higher overall quality. However I saw many Kanemitsu tachi this year including several Jūyō Bunkazai and even comparing top work of top smith is very difficult to me. Some I felt were nice swords while some were just amazing.

Well I think my line of thought is pretty puzzling. I checked and there seem to be 3 ōdachi that have passed Tokubetsu Jūyō, of them I would only want the Mihara Masaie ōdachi of Yasukuni Jinja. However I have huge respect of shrines and I think it is much more important to have the sword remaining there so people can view it. The Motoshige and Ko-Bizen Yoshimune ōdachi both seem to be very nice swords but they don't have the shape & size that I would want for my personal collection. I am extremely happy that many of the ōdachi are staying in Japan and there will be a chance for travellers to see them. I also understand that my sword appreciation is way different from NBTHK, Tanobe, Tokyo National Museum, or even high level focused people in this forum etc. I was extremely happy that I saw this ōdachi at Nagoya Tōken World that they had acquired recently https://www.touken-world.jp/search/127485/ It was my favorite sword at the whole museum. I know that they have 100+ swords that are better than this one but I don't really care about that. This summer I saw 18 Kokuhō and 64 Jūyō Bunkazai swords while in Japan, however I think all of my 10 favorite items were various ōdachi and naginata. Of course by traditional appreciation I should value the best swords and smiths of Japan but in all honesty many of them do not excite me at all... This following point might sound very weird to people with high end swords in their collection but for me personally owning a super expensive sword would be extremely stressful. I have been blessed to have been able to view some very high quality items that other people have shared, and it is amazing experience but for me owning an item like that would be stressful. For me it would be much more fun owning 5 to 10 more mediocre items. This might be completely unrelatable thing but it is my personal feeling. I feel much more fun as a caretaker of low-mid level basic stuff than thinking about daimyō level items.

That is very interesting, the fact that even Markus hadn't encountered this before makes it super rare. For me it is also the first time seeing this.

Your advice is very solid Rayhan, and I think it is wise for all of us to think about our decisions. Especially new people can buy something without thinking too much and if they would have waited for few months might be able to get an item that they enjoy much more. There was actually a recent thread where several of you guys were giving very solid info and recommendations to a new member. I do think that buying items is important to enjoy the collecting aspect of the hobby. I have fallen more into researcher category as I do enjoy that part immensely but I understand for most people it is the collecting that makes the hobby for them. So for collecting I think that buying & selling items is a major part of the enjoyment of this hobby. While it might not be optimal in terms of gathering funds for larger purchase, I would think it would be more enjoyable for many to have some items to enjoy while they save up for major purchase. Sure the money could be better invested in something else for 5 years for example and then used for larger purchase and it would be perfectly ok to do that too. For the low level items I think it is decently safe to get roughly the same investment back when reselling. Of course the initial investment need to be taken into consideration but if you have modern NBTHK papered item it will always sell for decent price outside Japan. The higher up you go in price the more variable it will get and people need to be cautious. For 2000€ sword losing 50% is only losing 1000€ or you could in lucky case get 150% and score 1000€ in your pocket in resale. Now think about 40,000€ sword and losing 50% is losing 20,000€. Of course you could in extremely lucky case sell it for profit but I think for a private person it will be more difficult to make profit on expensive swords, that is high end dealer playground. I can only imagine it would be extremely stressful to think about so large (money amount) fluctuations in price. As for personal collecting to maybe as a slight shock I don't care at all about the smiths/schools or quality... I don't actually want Masamune, Nagamitsu, Rai Kunitoshi etc. Currently even condition is bit irrelevant for me if I like the shape of the blade which for me is about the only thing that really matters. Even with unlimited budget my dream of personal collection would be 1. Muromachi period ōdachi 2. Muromachi period ō-naginata/nagamaki 3. Nanbokuchō period ōdachi 4. Nanbokuchō period ō-naginata/nagamaki Would it be completely irrational to choose a huge sword with condition issues and no papers over a pristine Tokubetsu Jūyō sword for example, of course. I know myself that I would enjoy that flawed ōdachi more than a very high level sword in my personal collection.

I think one important thing is to scale the time frame to financial means of the person. People will have varying opportunities and it would be of course important to make most out of them. When someone gets into sword collecting I don't think we should expect that he/she will wait 5 years before purchasing a sword. I think that is just unreasonable time frame, if it is that difficult to get into the hobby most people will just find another hobby. For the first purchase I think few months would seem like reasonable wait time. Of course the level of purchase will totally depend on the amount a person will be able to commit. I know some people in this forum (and outside forum too) have actually started at extremely high level, and that is an amazing feat. As a small time collector I have only 1 sword in my collection that I have actually wanted, I got it 3,5 years ago. The few others I have I have just purchased because they were very cheap and I liked them. Most likely when I approach my next purchase that I actually want in my focus I will sell something. For me saving up to items that I actually want will probably take somewhere around 5 to 10 years. It is just fun to spend 5 months of sword saving budget into a cheap item and then sell it bit later on for approximately same amount, that just keeps me being a collector. If I would only buy an item once every 10 years, honestly I think I would not care about the collecting side of this hobby at all.

There is 1 Kokuhō, 2 Jūyō Bunkazai, 2 Jūyō Bijutsuhin and 2 Tokubetsu Jūyō swords. The difficulty I personally see in Miike swords is that extremely few of them are appointed to the founder. I think the vast majority of Miike swords are actually from Late Kamakura - Nanbokuchō period. There is the legendary founder and later Mitsuyo smiths but the school apparently ran until late Muromachi period. However other smiths than Mitsuyo generations are very unknown. I have seen this JūBi Mitsuyo two times in the museum and it is a wonderful sword, however I believe this one is late Kamakura - early Nanbokuchō sword: www.touken-world.jp/search-noted-sword/juyobijutsuhin-meito/14360/

Seems like a nice sword, unfortunately cannot see the details in the video too well. Swords in overall got bit longer during Tenshō period so it is not too uncommon to see these bit longer Sukesada swords during the period. One negative thing for me personally would be the red lacquer stripe on the saya. Dragon fittings are not my thing either. I think you got nice overall package, as for the value you can search Sukesada swords from Japanese dealers and get some reference prices.

Seems to be an amazing show! Thank you for the pictures Thomas. From the pictures the absolute highlight for me would be the Yoshifusa tachi even though I was way off by first glance, thought it would be something later.

Thank you Dennis for presenting your fine sword to the forum and starting extremely interesting discussion. As Markus posted the newest research by Tanobe sensei I admit I have bit hard time in understanding what he is saying. My conclusion was that in current research both blades with the short signatures and long signatures date approximately to same period? The term "bucket attribution" might sound belittling for blades but that is not my intention at all. It is just that some schools get a lot of blades attributed towards them, it just goes like that as in traditional sword appreciation it is often that very specific attribution gets given to mumei blades. I would be perfectly fine with more broader attributions but it is what it is. I posted this in May as I remember I posted this before. Here are the amount of swords NBTHK has had passing through each phase of their shinsa. The numbers are not 100% correct (I would have all Jūyō and Tokubetsu Jūyō data but I am not bothered to count every single item) but in the quite close neighbourhood and they will hopefully give you lot of insight. Starting from highest tier to lowest Tokubetsu Jūyō - c. 1,200 swords Jūyō - c. 12,000 swords Tokubetsu Hozon - c. 80,000 swords Hozon - c. 125,000 swords I admit I don't really understand quality in traditional appreciation sense. Quality as a term gets thrown around so often but my own view on it is biased. I don't think precious smiths or schools are synonym of highest quality (it is also likely I just don't understand them). However I have seen Masamune, Awataguchi, Ko-Bizen etc. that to me have not been that high quality swords, and in comparison I have seen splendid work by some less appreciated late Muromachi or Shintō schools. If attribution was all that was judged then there would not even be the need for multiple tiers of papers (well I understand some of the reasons for multiple tiers). However swords can be of weaker overall quality and still achieve high ranks on other extremely important features. I think there are actually many Jūyō Bunkazai blades that those who focus solely on quality would not really appreciate, and the opposite there are many Tokubetsu Jūyō blades that historically focused person like me might not appreciate that much even though they could be of very high quality.

This might be a bit long post with lot of personal opinion. First of all I must say you have a nice sword with nice koshirae. It might be crazy but I personally might like the koshirae more than the sword itself. Now I must admit that I am not personally a huge fan of Shikkake Norinaga. I will post 3 items that I have personally seen in museums in Japan but to be honest none of them did evoke much feelings in me. This is just my personal preference as there are items that immidiately make me react strongly. This first one is a Jūyō Bunkazai tachi and it is in the collection of Tokyo National Museum. I saw this at TNM in 2023, now when I look my diary and the other swords that were displayed in the same room, this one got little attention from me as I felt others were so much more interesting. This second one is a Tokubetsu Jūyō suriage katana that has kinzōgan-mei. I saw this at NBTHK in 2024 and the sword has been donated to NBTHK and is in their collection. Unfortunately the same thing as with the above tachi, I felt there were so many more interesting swords at display at that time. Here is a Jūyō naginata-naoshi with partial mei that is in the collection of Nagoya Tōken World. I am personally a huge fan of naginata but unfortunately this particular one was not that impressive to me. Now the item has a partial mei and attributed to Norinaga, there is a "paradox" in that which I will try to go into later. You can find this particular sword here: https://www.touken-world.jp/search/44080/ The complicated stuff might start here. Norinaga is pretty famous but can anyone name other Shikkake smith and present signed work by them? I checked and currently I have 35 signed blades by Norinaga (various generations as few are Muromachi work) but perhaps 0 signed blades by other Shikkake smiths. There is possibility of error that I have accidentally thrown a Shikkake smith to Senjuin but in general this shows my idea that pretty much only Norinaga is known from the school. Hence the only logical route for the partial mei naoshi above would be attribute it Norinaga as it bears Shikkake in mei, I mean who other would it be attributed to? I know Japanese experts are the foremost authority and I fully respect their knowledge. However I feel that Shikkake in general is slightly a bucket attribution, and as it lacks any other well known smiths than Norinaga how are they attributing stuff to this school (yes there are typical things that might make people go for Shikkake in attributions but it is complicated as there are no signed references). For example a lot of naoshi with Yamato traits get attributed as Shikkake. The 5 Jūyō Bunkazai blades by Shikkake Norinaga are all signed tachi. There are 6 Tokubetsu Jūyō blades by him 3 of them are signed tachi, 1 Kinzōgan, 1 that has Shusho (even though TJ has it mumei) and 1 mumei. There are dated items for 1319, 1338, 1340 and 1340. I cannot comment on Jūyō shinsa as I have never gotten into the process or asked about it, I just study the results. However I would challenge the AI result of limited passes, there are no specific percentage or number of items that will pass. It is up to NBTHK to decide and there will be fluctuation by numbers & passing percentage that is probably depending on the items sent in and how the shinsa team felt about the items in that particular session. There can be lot of variation in results.

I will try to write an actual reply when I have time but here are the Jūyō numbers from all 70 sessions. 36 Shikkake Norinaga blades (signed + attributed) 103 Shikkake blades (attributed)

I believe the signature actually is 奥州会津住下坂 - Ōshū Aizu jū Shimosaka.