Bruce Pennington

Got a request for a full translation of the banners in this photo. We know it's a send-off for an employee, Mr Ogawa Hisaichi, but interested in what they are saying about the manufacture of swords. This came from Richard Fuller. He said “They seem to confirm the manufacture of gunto and diplomatic swords at the factory/workshop of Matsuyama with reference to tempering a sword (by) expert artisan(s" I ran this by Guy, at Wehrmacht-Awards, and all he saw were send-off slogans, and nothing referencing swords. Just want a second opinion before I give the word back to Richard. Thanks for the help!

I’ve seen a few lately in the $6-7,000 price range from Japan. Don’t know if they’re selling that high though.

And you didn't get the date and serial numbers?!?!?! Oh the agony!!!

Sorry dude, bad fake.

JP, Yes, very little is actually known about the Mantetsu operation. So, speculation follows: - Nan to Ren - We know that Nan-man arsenal began stamping the blades in '43. We don't know if they were supervising Mantetsu before that, maybe they were, maybe they weren't. But the stamping seems to indicate that in '43 the Nan-man inspectors began taking an active role in approving Mantetsu blades. According to Thomas' research, At some point, Nan-man established a dedicated inspector unit for the Mantetsu operation and they began using the Ren. So, speculating here - Perhaps the Nan of Nan-man was used as the arsenal began it's supervisory role and after establishing a permanent unit in Dalian, assigned them their own stamp, the Ren. - Koa coexisting with non-Koa mei - this is still quite the mystery. The '44 chart found by Nick Komiya lables all the blades made by Mantetsu, and "completed" by Tokyo - "Koa Isshin"; 6,000 total (500 by Mantetsu and 5,500 by Tokyo. actually the chart is confusing because they state Tokyo completed 6,000, but the 500 and 5,500 add up to 6,000 so I think the 6 is a total of both figures). Yet, most '44 blades found today are NOT Koa's, though I have record of 2. The serial numbers of the '43 Koa's seem to be scattered through the year, so it appears they were being made simultaneously with the non-Koa blades. With this, and the '44 chart, it would seem to imply that non-Koa blades were being made by someone other than Mantetsu. - The W, mei, and finishing - I have W stamped blades in '42,'43, and '44; on Koa's, Nan's, and a Ren blade. Using Thomas' info about the W being a midway/halfway inspection, all these blades could have been stamped at the Mantetsu factory by the Nan-man inspectors. It COULD be an indication of when Nan-man actually started overseeing the Mantetsu operation. It COULD be a stamp put on blades that were being shipped off to Tokyo (and yes, Nan-man/Mukden) for finishing, or even a stamp put on the unfinished blades as they were received, approving them for completion. -- Mei - I don't see any reason to believe the mei were all cut by a single worker. There is enough variation to indicate otherwise. As to whether the mei was cut before leaving Mantetsu or at the finishing location - who can say? We don't even know what was actually meant by "unfinished." -- From the school girl diary found in the book K. Morita discovered, we know for a fact that some Mantetsu blades were being polished in Mukden. But the fitting, even for Mantetsu blades, is unknown when and how that happened.

I need to get back the Nan and Ren stamps, and the Nan-man Arsenal connection. Been getting educated by a very patient Thomas, on the arsenals. And he made the following statement: "The [Mantetsu] Sword Factory 刀剣製作所 was located at the Dairen Railway Workshop 大連鉄道工場. It is a civilian factory. At some point in time, Nan-Man Arsenal established a supervisory unit in Dairen. It used the 連 stamp for inspections." I believe, for a long time, my mind had melded the SMR Mantetsu factory operation with the "South Manchurian Arsenal" otherwise known, now, as the Nan-man Army Arsenal. So my head had decided that Mantetsu was an arsenal. Therefore I couldn't comprehend why another arsenal would be inspecting Mantetsu blades. Well, LIGHT-BULB-MOMENT!!!, I now realize that Mantetsu was completely a civilian factory and that it makes complete sense that an Arsenal would be put over them for supervision and inspection. I'm now surprised that it took Army HQ as long as it did. The Nan stamps don't show up until 1943 and the Ren in late '43 through '44. Knowing this, it is now not necessary to postulate that Nan-man was making Mantetsu blades to explain the presence of the stamps on the blades. If Nan-man inspectors were stationed at the factory, it is completely logical that the stamps were put on blades made by Mantetsu in Dalian. On the other hand, we now know that, for a fact, some Mantetsu blades were being polished by workers in Mukden, the city where Nan-man Arsenal was located. SO, it is still possible that Mantetsu blades were being made there from '43 onward, or simply as postulated earlier, that a certain quota of unfinished blades were being sent to Nan-man for finish work. It is starting to fall more into place for me. I hope I haven't led too many others astray with my misconception of the SMR/Arsenal issue.

A correction to my correction - I am slow, but trainable! At the time I wrote that, I didn't know what the Saka stamp was for, nor did I know that there was an Osaka Army Arsenal that was using it. I learned from Eric that the smith was Nagamitsu, who worked in the Osaka arsenal region, so the original opinion that this stamp was the Saka stamp was likely correct. I'm adding it to the Stamps doc. If anyone has a better image of the Saka stamp than this, I'd appreciate seeing it.

John, then that makes the white same' even more puzzling. I have a Muromachi era blade mounted in kaigunto fittings. The ito was laquered black. But none of the fittings are old. It was a total re-fit. Lev, You'll find a much great number of nihonto experts on the Translation Assistance forum, here: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/forum/15-translation-assistance/ for your mei question.

Lev, Sorry to interject, I have nothing in answer to your questions (someone will!!!), but I'm fascinated by the tsuka. Like you say, it was re-fitted for Navy use. I find it interesting that they left the same' white. I personally haven't seen that many older blades converted for the navy, mostly army, so I don't have any background for comparison. (could this even account for some of the pictures in F & G of Naval officers wearing gunto with white same'?) Dave? Neil?

We've started a new chart to organize all these inspector stamps that Thomas has been I.D.ing for us! I'll add it to the Stamps Doc shortly. Inspector Chart.docx

Thomas, Fabulous stuff! Please see my PM on creating a new inspector chart. A new one! And while this one is actually engraved, like mei, it says "Inspected" Found here: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1021613

Luis, Don't know if you have this one already, but it's on a blade witht the mei: "Iwami no Kuni no ju Yoshikiyo saku," and the date was March 1945. There is a "Tai" stamp above the star, from the Izumo Seiko steel works. Located In Shimane. Located here: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/6628-iwami-yoshikoyo-gendaito/

I'm in!!!

I put the question to Kevin Jones, of Ryujin Swords. He said he'd see what he could discover about these.

When we started studying the kikusui "stamp" as a group, we realized it wasn't a stamp at all, but each one was handcrafted. Even stamps like the Seki and some Type 95 stamps have variations. I wouldn't be surprised if we found, upon further comparison to many examples, that the Star has plenty of variations too. I could be wrong, Luis. You are the one studying them. Fill us in on your progress as you go. I would enjoy learning more on them.

John, or Luis, is that the source of this blade - Showa22? If so, that adds another layer of doubt. It is true that many of the RJT smiths made both gendaito and showato. So it IS possible this was a showato, non-star, blade that someone post-war put the star to increase the value. I still say though, the stamp looks hot-stamped the way the metal splooshes (that official swordmith term!) around the stamp. I doubt any of our favorite shysters can hot-stamp a blade.

My understanding of the arsenals has always been slim-to-none. Help me understand this better, please. Did the Kokura Arsenal have "branch offices" in multiple cities? If so, do you know where? Was this true of the other arsenals?

Japaneseswordindex has Kiyotsugu listed in the RJT page: The following are known blades with star stamps by Jumei Tosho swordsmiths. Miyairi Shohei (Akihira) Niigata Akihisa Hiragawa Akimitsu Kasuga Seizou Tokoro Harumoto Chikuzen (no) Kuni ju Muto Hidehiro Hidemine Chikuzen ju Kajihara Hiromitsu Ikusa no Kajitsu Hisakuni Yoshu Seiunshi Hisatsugu Noshu ju Kuriyama Kaneaki (star + Kitae stamp) Kaneharu Noshu ju Kanehide (star + Seki stamp) Seki ju Kanehide Noshu ju Kanehisa (Kojima) Kanemichi (star +Showa stamp) Noshu Seki ju Kanemichi Takeuchi Kanemitsu Seki Kanemoto Kanenaga (star +Seki stamp) Noshu ju Kanenobu Noshu Seki ju Kanenori Kaneshige (star + Seki stamp) Noshu ju (Morita) Kaneshige Seki ju Kanetomo (star + Seki stamp) Noshu ju (Murayama) Kanetoshi (star + Seki stamp) Gunma Imae Kanetsugu Joshu ju Imai Kanetsugu Seki ju Kanetsugu Tsushima Kanetsugu Kawai Kaneyoshi Inoue Katsukiyo Tokyo Dai Ichi Rikugun Zoheisho Katsunobu Yoshida Katsunori Sanjo ju Fujiwara Kazunori (may also be read as Ichinori) Oki Kuni ju Kikumitsu (star + tai stamp) Senshu Kiyokane Choshu ju Kiyokune Izumo (no) Kuni Kiyomitsu Choshu ju Kiyotsugu <<<<<<<<----------- Hizen ju Kunimitsu Mori Kunitoshi Noshu ju Kunitoshi (same as Mori Kunitoshi) Sendai Kunitsugu

Thomas,On this post, you mentioned the Matsuyama branch office. In a recent email, Richard Fuller mentioned a "Matsuyama shop." Are we talking about the same thing? Was Matsuyama a sword and/or koshirae manufacturer? Or is this just an Army arsenal inspector organization? On a connected note, it just occured to me that the "matsu" and "yama" stamps are probably 2 peas-in-a-pod - from the same inspection office - Matsuyama - just like the 2 Type 95 stamps of the Kobe factory we just figured out. Matsu yama

Interesting icon change, did you go Game of Thrones White Walker on us?!?

Is it Luis? Please go to your settings and add at least a first name, forum rules, thanks! It is a peculiar star, isn't it! It actually looks like it was hot-stamped into the steel, rather than a cold stamp. There are some guys who are quite knowledgable on the RJT operation, which is where you'll see lots of star stamped blades. Maybe one of them will take a look at it. If you search "star stamp" or "RJT" on the forum, you should be able to find them, and maybe shoot them a PM. Do you you the smith's name on this one? Was he an RJT smith? If not, that would invalidate the star.

Thank you Moriyama-san! That nailed it. Chris, sorry to say, but it's John's not mine. I plan to get one of these for my collection, but have too many things ahead of it to chase one down yet. John, you got a good deal on that one! They normally run in the $1,200 range!

All, Anyone recognize this writing? It's on a kyu blade. I've seen similar writing on the handguard of a navy dirk. If memory serves, isn't it some sort of old religious writing? I'm adding a side-by-side with the image flipped incase I've got is upside down.

Thomas, It's tempting, but I just don't see it. See comparison below. I have a vague memory of an older Japanese wrtiting style (started with an S, I think) that was often used on older blades. Might have been religious based. I think this writing is of that style.

Here is a more clear picture of that one. Hopefully someone will be able to translate!