Gabriel L

I'm not Steve, but: kantei = appraisal suguba (suguha) = straight line hamon midare = irregular hamon So Steve is just saying that the details posted on your site could be more accurate as the hamon isn't really suguba, it's more midare. Very nice looking sword. I second Steve's other question, which was if you had any plans to get the handle re-wrapped. It's among the least expensive restoration jobs available in this field and will make a huge difference in appearance and durability (the current wrap is not traditional).

Hi Danny, What a wonderful gift from your father! I wonder where and how he picked it up, because it's either luck or knowledge that got him a genuine antique; we see a sad number of fakes posted by new forumites. First things first, without presuming anything about your own level of knowledge, the following is a must read: Dr. Stein's "Japanese Sword Care" and repost of the "NBTHK Sword Care Guide" articles. Good advice; the blade hasn't survived centuries by accident after all. Your sword looks good to me, no obvious flaws or serious rusting going on, just some very minor chipping... I wonder about the vertical mark in "sword021.jpg" but am not seriously worried about it. As seen in "sword023.jpg" from the scratches and softened shinogi, it looks like someone may have given it an amateur shine, but thankfully it doesn't look like the damage is bad (note: in general an amateur polish = destruction of the sword, leave restoration to the professional experts!). They don't seem to have touched the nakago which is very good. I like the shape and what I see of the hamon. It seems like a good quality antique katana. It is a bit out of polish and scuffed/stained, but IMHO it can still be enjoyed without the very costly step of professional restoration (roughly ~$2500). Congratulations again! Maybe some other people will have more interesting things to say, but I just wanted to assure you that it's a good authentic blade.

I honestly am not certain if this is an irrevocably destroyed nihonto, or an oddly nihonto-esque fake. I'm leaning towards the former, but emphasis on "irrevocably," so that is kind of moot.

Hi Lawrence, I wouldn't presume to speak for the NMB moderators; you can PM one of them to ask directly if you are worried. However, and this is just my personal opinion, I suspect that your posts were not the reason the thread was locked. Some people use lesser quality antiques for forms; Aoi Art sells these as swords for iaido. I don't have strong opinions against that myself. I agree that using a finer/rarer antique is not something the vast majority of people should ever consider, out of respect and for the sake of preservation (especially as there are plenty of excellent modern alternatives). Regarding your statement of "a real set" - that's just the thing, a "real" set in Japanese historical context would not consist of three blades. Either of the following pairs would make far more sense: [a katana + (wakizashi or tanto)], or [a tachi + tanto]. Now, there's nothing wrong with wanting to own a number of blades, even more than 2 blades by the same smith or 3 blades mounted as a set. If that's what you want, go ahead and try for it. But 3 blades mounted as a single set isn't "real" by the strictest definition. If I were you, I'd do a little reading before spending (always good advice no matter the interest). Your desire for "real" and "quality equipment" is laudable and obtainable, but slightly at odds with your first stated goal. If you are going to start iaido soon you may want to begin with whatever your instructor recommends; an decent alloy iaito such as those Tozando sells (as one example) should be more than sufficient for any art that does not require tameshigiri. Later, when you've hung around here and absorbed a bit more, you can decide what makes the most sense for your dollar. Anyway, that's my advice for the moment. I'd go into more detail about the many options that you have in obtaining a high quality modern blade (check out http://moderntosho.com for example) but I have work of my own that needs doing. Cheers, and welcome to the NMB, -GLL

Many thanks once again Koichi-san.

I have to get up early otherwise I'd look more, but I'll quickly post the easy part: ? = ? 山 = YAMA 二 = NI (futa?) 平 = TAIRA (hira?) The correct reading and meaning is not jumping out at me except maybe as the owner's name. But I don't know Japanese, someone else will be along shortly with some real info I expect.

Photographing nihonto is difficult even for knowledgeable photographers and collectors. The best background depends on your ability with a camera, the adjustability of your equipment, desired effect, etc. I'd say try to find a neutral (mid-tone) colorless background. Too dark or light a background can trick the camera into over- or under-exposing the sword. Of course, this can be compensated for with proper technique; for example, the manual exposure setting can be critical in such cases. During closeups, if you're using a point-and-shoot digital camera, switch to "macro" mode (a flower icon on Canon models) to help with focus. The textbook style is with a pure black background, but those are skillfully produced photos that involve some careful setups and often post-processing to get just right. Conversely, more natural shots that give an idea of the environmental lighting can be informative IMHO. The golden rule with all photography is lighting. Experiment on this aspect. There's no guaranteed simple rule for success. For some good examples of what good photos of nihonto can look like, according to a variety of approaches, check out the following sites: http://www.ronbingham.com/sword_photography.htm http://www.nihonto.ca (be sure to view the slideshows, not just the elegant but austere cover pics!) http://www.nihonto.us http://www.moderntosho.com/gallery2/main.php http://www.legacyswords.com/fs_ant_daito.htm http://www.nihontoantiques.com/ There are other links on the main page of the http://www.nihontomessageboard.com site that you might check out as well, the above was just a selection. Let me just say once again however that this is a tricky aspect of the hobby and ultimately not as important as getting the blade into the hands of someone who knows the subject well. Even the best photos do not compare to viewing a work in person after all. So just have fun with it, and I'm sure we'll be happy to see the results.

I am in the area and am hoping to attend the next meeting. I've only visited once before, and in the last 3 months have had conflicts, but am determined to return. Perhaps I'll see you there.

Ferric Chloride, i.e. FeCl3, Iron (III) Chloride, etc., is a molecule composed of one atom of the element Iron and three atoms of the element Chlorine. From the Wikipedia entry: So it's an acid etch treatment. Presumably someone applied it to bring out the activity, but it's not a very good look.

Very kind of you Brian... I was indeed spewing weak stereotypes about late Koto vs early Shinto (or trying to). :lol: Still, best avoid generalization in the first place. What about the Toko Taikan scan Jacques D. posted? To my eyes that mei is very close to that of Bob's sword. Closer than the example Reinhard posted, which I already felt wasn't too bad despite a couple of discrepancies. Actually what I find interesting is that Bob's shows characters and strokes similar to elements of both sources mixed together. Of course, if you're going to fake a mei the Toko Taikan is a very well known and available menu of choices, so that doesn't really say anything either way. Bob, the only way to really tell if it's gimei (false mei) is to assess both the workmanship and the signature together - one more reason to bring it to someone in person.

Fair enough... sometimes I need to ponder the taste of my foot.

Hi Bob, First of all, congratulations on what looks to be a nice authentic nihonto in reasonably good condition (for a WWII bringback). I have just one question: what's with the color of the mei (signature)? Has it been enhanced with some talcum powder (ok), or is the patina actually stripped (bad)? Before you do anything else at all, Please check out Dr. Stein's Japanese Sword Guide (http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm) specifically the articles on DOs/DON'Ts (http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/care.htm) and more in-depth maintenance (http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/care/handling.htm). THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE: don't try to polish or "fix" the blade yourself as you *will* ruin it, probably permanently. It would be far better to maintain it as it is now than to attempt an amateur "polish." Other than that, just keep it clean, don't try using it, avoid touching it with bare skin (bad for the blade, possibly bad for you ), etc. I confirm the signature as Yamashiro Kuni ju Minamoto Tsunahiro. This essentially means Tsunahiro of Yamashiro province made the blade (Minamoto is a surname). Hawley's "Japanese Swordsmiths" lists this smith as signing with a variety of signatures, including this precise one; he is placed at 1673-88. Hawley's rates him at 15 points which is somewhat meaningless since he rates a lot of smiths around that level. There is a single note of "wide suguba" meaning that the hamon (hard white edge steel pattern from differential hardening) is straight(-ish) and wide. Hawley's also states that he is the "same as Ise Yoshihiro," which is a little interesting as Ise Yoshihiro (2nd gen) is listed to have worked around 1716. So apparently the smith moved from Yamashiro to Ise? Assuming this information is valid. This doesn't mean a great deal about the quality of your particular blade, but is a good context at least. From the single photo you gave of the blade itself, and the measurements, it looks good; 29" is a long katana blade, which will enhance the value as many of that length have since been cut down somewhat. And the early Edo period is not a bad one for quality (better in general than the preceding Muromachi period for sure). We will definitely need a wider variety of much more detailed photos before anyone can really comment on the quality however. Closeup photos of the point, the overall nakago (tang, from top to bottom including the notches where the blade starts), some closeups of the hada (grain in the steel surface) and hamon (white edge steel), overall pics of the blade from both sides (bare, and as un-distorted as possible), etc. Try to make sure there is enough light to bring out all the details; I like late afternoon light coming in from a window to make things pop. That is a very primitive photography strategy and we don't expect you to be an overnight expert in revealing every subtle nuance, but try your best anyway. Do NOT use a flash, use a tripod if you have one. Do not shrink the resultant photos down to tiny thumbnails if you can help it; medium-sized photos (about the size you posted) with links to higher-res photos are a great bet. At any rate I think from the photo you have that it should be restorable; however, such can be very costly, around $80-100 USD per inch of blade edge. Still, that would be the only way to fully appreciate the artistry of the steel and best preserve it for the future. But do look into bringing it in person to a Japanese sword club or polisher (Moses would absolutely qualify on that front). They will be able to tell you more than photos could. And depending on the state of any rust, it could be enjoyed and maintained as-is without a brand new art polish. And welcome to NMB!

Hi Darcy, To be honest I always thought your old B&W site had a lot of class by going for such an absolute design aesthetic. The site was very unified and the focus always ended up where it belonged: on the content (text and photos). Which isn't to say the layout and typography weren't handsome in an extremely understated way; I found the old site distinctive enough. Of course, if you're bored you're bored, so it's up to you. Anyway, on a technical level, I'm a little leery of the kind of transparency effects you have at the moment. Despite my notebook's fairly powerful specs there's a significantly slower feel to scrolling. As someone with a professional comp sci background and obvious web experience, you might already know of this, but have you ever seen the Complexspiral faux-transparency effect before? It's a very elegant solution that doesn't resort to PNGs. Something to consider perhaps. Of course, this probably wouldn't work with your scaling background (which is itself a nifty trick). In any case these are just my honest impressions. Let me hasten to add that I don't think the new site looks bad.

That's... honestly one of the most unexpected and weird things I have ever seen in the world of nihonto. Not really complaining though. :-P

I already mentioned elsewhere that Ginza Choshuya's stuff blows me away, quality-wise. How expensive is a print subscription delivered to the USA?

It's the seventh symbol needed to go back to Earth in the movie Stargate. Sorry, I couldn't resist. :lol: (PS - the links work fine for me.)

Given that all tickets are sold out, I personally cannot think of any objections.

Thanks for the input Mr. B, that all makes sense to me. Also Mike Yamaguchi's original eBay description is telling in how the nakago actually tapers in thickness (from 0.75" to 0.6" at the shinogi). Given that tidbit I actually now think I was wrong regarding the nakago not originally being an integral habaki. Well, I'm not sure. Maybe it was and maybe it wasn't.

I do not believe this was ever a yari. I've seen some yari converted into ken, and they don't look like this. The "block" effect is much more dramatic and much thicker, for one. The nakago looks somewhat thick here but it's partly a bit of cognitive dissonance: we're not used to seeing a substantial nakago edge next to the thin blade edge, which is a necessary consequence of how the nakago/shinogi/edge all meet on this particular blade (unless you made the nakago more oval/diamond in cross-section). The photography -- specifically shadows/angles -- enhance this (mis)perception as well. Could you perhaps tell us how thick it *actually* is? Besides which, the bend or sori at the nakago would make even less sense in a yari than in an interesting ken/tanto blade. I agree that it seems to be an atypical ken/tanto but it is kind of weird. Maybe it's intended to resemble a yari (i.e. a "yari-naoshi-saku ken" hahaha). I am not entirely confident for example that the nakago was meant to be used as an integral habaki; note the suggestions of hamachi, as well as the placement of the top character of the mei. Perhaps the current mounts are after-the-fact adaptations that happen to work that way? Because making a habaki to fit it would be difficult? My only reasons for believing any of this I've listed above; this is truly opinion although I've stated it a bit strongly. :lol: I welcome any contradictions though because it's a really neat piece and I'd love to get a better understanding of what it really is. Cheers, -GLL

This is all assuming that the same C&RG posted all those answers. Technically there's no proof of that. But it does seem far more likely than not... and very weird.

Undoubtedly. :lol: I should have mentioned Jimmy that there's no law that says you have to get it polished an appraised. As much as I would love to see that happen, I'm not the one paying for it. The only thing I would say you should do is to get it looked at (possibly just at a sword club) to see if there is any active rust, because getting that neutralized could be important for preservation's sake. A full restoration and shinsa would be a nice move for your own benefit - you could appreciate the artistry and history of the piece that much better - but considering the expense and time involved it should definitely remain a personal decision made because you want to, not because you think you're supposed to. Cheers, -GLL

As has been discussed before on this forum, sometimes we find "small name" gimei, since they're less traceable or documented, as opposed to "big name" smiths who attract a lot of attention (maybe too much?). I can imagine faking an inexistent smith as well just to claim the blade was made in Bizen, for instance. But I'm in the dark on this particular blade, so thanks to all who have contributed so far. Jimmy, once you get the piece back in your hands for more photography, an shots of the bare blade (especially if it's been cleaned up slightly, and if you can light it well enough to bring out the activity) will help, as will shots of the entire nakago. By the shape and color of the nakago, the area where it transitions into blade, the overall shape of the bare blade, and the character of the activity (hamon/hada/etc. if you can get it to show up), it may be possible to make some reasonable educated estimates of age and provenance. From the piecemeal photos currently posted it is more difficult to do this. If you get it polished then it would definitely be worth putting through shinsa. All this will be expen$ive, however, possibly outstripping the value of the blade itself. One option would be to get a window polish, a small area of the blade worked on to see what's visible, before committing to a major restoration. After shinsa, if the mei is gimei then it can be removed by the polisher. Shinsa by the NBTHK or NTHK would be your best bet for getting a definite answer of the age and provenance of the blade. Even without a mei the experts of both organizations have the experience, knowledge, and resources to authenticate and identify bare blades, sometimes even down to a specific smith. On the other hand there's no guarantee, sometimes it's difficult to pin down even the school.

Hi again Jimmy, A kao is like a maker's mark/monogram/logo/flourish/seal. You could cross-post this in the tosogu forum if you like, it could get some more specific attention although this site is small enough that many people read all the sub-fora. As you can see there's a bit of uncertainty as to the smith's name (although I'm glad to see Koichi-san is reluctant to rule out my original "Sukemitsu" reading ). This won't practically mean anything unless we can pin down the smith and then get more information, or else decide the mei is gimei (false) which isn't a big deal. And re: the menuki, butterfly makes a lot of sense, I didn't see the back trim on the wings giving it that shape. I had guessed flying fish. :lol:

Gordon, As in gimei? Because the mei is weak, unreferenced, or both? Just curious. -GLL

Hi everyone. I bumped Jimmy over here from this SFI thread. I originally thought maybe Sukemitsu 助光 or the kanji for "Myo" -mitsu 明光, which Jacques pointed out would more likely read as Akimitsu, but Hawley's had none of the above singing "Bizen kuni ju ___mitsu." Good call on Tomo 朋, but as you say it still doesn't help. Tricky.