Ford Hallam

Japanese authorities have never used the terms "nie" or "nioi" in relation the tsuba and I don't think we should either. The likelihood of these very delicate details being evident in a rust based patina seems to me very unlikely. These effects are only visible on blades as a result of the vey careful polishing techniques that were developed to show exactly these details. As it's obvious the only way they could be discerned on a patinated tsuba would be if they were physically prominent, like little bumps. The whole surface of a tsuba can be covered in all sorts of minor lumps and bumps of rust and simple textures from corrosion and hammering etc, speculating on the possible presence of nie in those sorts of conditions does seem a bit unnecessary. It also pre-supposes that the tsuba was heat treated in a similar way to the edge of a blade. As we know, only the edge was that hard ( that it would show nie and nioi) and the rest of the steel was kept somewhat softer for reasons of toughness and resilience. Those two attributes are far more desirable, I would have thought, in a tsuba so I see no reason for tsuba to be hardened like blades, quite the opposite. It would also probably require a better grade of steel which again would be a waste of time and resources. Regards, Ford he he, I just saw my "ranking"....heretic ...cheers Brian, I love it

Henry, martin, If you're interested I just posted some images showing the process I follow to make a fitted, custom box. Here's the link. The young lady I mentioned is more than happy to act as a go-between for ordering custom boxes, pm me for her email address, but we're now looking into having a tsuba box made to our specifications. Likely cheaper than the existing "delux" model and a better quality. I'll know more after I've been to Japan and seen some samples. regards, Ford

Shan, I'm relieved to see that you're hardy enough to take the pretty hard knocks this thread may have delivered but I'd point out that all the comments are essentially telling you the same thing. This is not to "have a go" at you but are genuine attempts to try to guide you to a more rewarding approach, both financially and in terms of the enjoyment you could gain from this hobby. Personally, I wouldn't put too much hope in uncovering a sleeper...it does happen, but rarely when taking a shotgun approach...ie; "if I spread my shot all over the place I'm bound to hit something" There are some very fine piece out there, and they needn't cost a mortgage. At the moment I think Owazamono has one of the best spreads of iron tsuba I've seen for a while on-line. I think the prices are very fair too, and the condition of the pieces are also very good. ( no...I don't get a commission either ; don't even know the seller) Go and give your eyes a treat and perhaps you'll begin to feel something a little more refined in response to "old iron" Regards, Ford

Hi Nick, no not bad...in fact this is a not uncommon problem with these sorts of tsuba. I may actually have some cast fine silver copies of this mon...they'd need to be gilded and applied somehow ( the originals were soft soldered on after the patination.) but those are just minor details. I'll have a dig around in my scrap box and see what I can come up with. In the meantime can you give me the exact length, top to bottom, of the mon, and how many are needed... regards, Ford

Hi Shan... how do I put this politely...nah...sorry, I don't think there really is a way ...Ford's capsule review...."it's a piece of Sh1T". No need to really try to decide whether it's cast or made by some other method, it's just really bad but your photography has clearly improved. the image is very good. It has been suggested I should explain why it's bad, the obvious answer is that it lacks any good qualities. Once you have a clear idea of what these "good" qualities are it will all become clear I say this to be kind...no... really :| If you intend to spend money on tsuba and are left believing that this sort of paperweight has any desirable attributes then I think, as a group, we have seriously failed you...and anyone else who might get the wrong idea as to what is desirable in these sorts of guard. The qualities that are admired in "old iron" are far more subtle and refined than merely gnarly old corrosion and crude workmanship. To be honest, it is probably one of the most esoteric aesthetics of Japanese metalwork and as such, is quite difficult to pick up on on-line. Dealers are rarely much help either, as there is a tendency occasionally, in my opinion, to hype any old piece of iron as though it was formed by Amatarasu herself. In terms of reference books to help you develop some sort of understanding of these I'd recommend the books by Masayuki Sasano. He provides decent images of good examples and does a fair job of trying to express something of why they are good examples. They're a bit pricey ( about $250 on average ) but not compared to the money you could waste on buying dodgy "look-a-likes" Another reference that I know many treat as their bible is "Tsuba- an aesthetic appreciation" by Torigoe and Haynes. Personally I find it to be a bit contradictory at times, the illustrations are fairly poor as they're photocopies, there are far too may technical errors regarding technique to make for comfortable reading (for me anyway) and there is actually almost no discussion of aesthetics at all....still, the title did sound promising The other big issue I have with the book is the overt bias of the author regarding his own taste, and presenting this as objective fact. I do find it of use at times but I think as a starter book it could seriously skew any chance of developing a balanced view of the subject. I hope you appreciate me writing all this....'cos I get the feeling this may be regarded as heresy.... ...hmmm, perhaps I should apply to the management for a post as "an upstart despot"... :D The forum could do with one. regards, Ford

alcohol should pose no problems.... and this short essay confirms your concerns, Brian. No alternative is offered though.

Hi Shan, I haven't had a look through my references so couldn't tell you anything about the name but I can tell you that the signature was added sometime after the piece was made. It was also not actually chiselled, which would be pretty much standard for mei on fittings. On swords the mei is actually chased in, that is, the metal isn't cut away, merely indented. the smith uses a narrow wedge shaped punch which leaves the characteristic "arrow head" marks. On fittings mei a chisel shaped a bit like a woodworker's mortice chisel is used, obviously much smaller . The cutting is carried out using the corner/edge of one of the sides. This allows for cuts that somewhat resemble brush strokes. In the example you show you can see a sleight cushion of raised metal alongside the indented marks. This tell us that the mei wasn't cut at all. Once a mei is cut the whole surface is polished smooth using a fine polishing stone and then charcoal. This is to remove any sharp edges and minor burrs of metal. Clearly in this case this hasn't been done. The probable reason is that doing so would necessitate convincingly repatinating the copper....not always that easy, well....for most mortals anyway:D The shaping of the kanji is not very good either but that alone is not always cause for suspicion. Hope this helps. regards, Ford

Hi Martin, the colour we see on tsuba, the patina, is essentially an inert form of rust. In ideal conditions this form of rust has formed what is called a passivation layer. This means it is a non-reactive, protective layer on the steel. The presence of phosphorous in the steel is very important in this respect. This basic film is however pretty much composed of the same iron compounds and is thus the same colour what ever the basic steel composition. The variations in this layer's tone are due to the degree of active rust present...ie; more active corrosion...more reddish rust. The inert layer is quite dark verging on black. having said all that, the tsuba-shi will typically introduce further ingredients into the patina layer. Partly to help create this essential protective coat and partly to make a pleasing colour. Sulphides, copper salts, and organic material such as oil ( which is then made to oxidise and help seal up the pores of the metal) are fairly common additives. A certain amount of heat can also be used to introduce yet more iron oxide compounds in the mix. Think of the rainbow of interference colours you see on a piece of polished steel when it is slowly heated up and you can get an idea of the sort of subtle manipulation that this may offer. Hope this help to shed some light on this arcane art/science regards, Ford

Hello Martin, the box is supplied quite plain, the rest is up to the artist. I line the face and cut-out of the wooden insert with a spongy material and then line it with fabric. My wife then makes a matching cushion to rest on top of the tsuba. I have to do one in the next 2 weeks so I'll document the process as a tutorial...might be of interest to the tsubadudes :D Here's the link to one of the stores in Tokyo....all in Japanese though, sorry. I order mine through a young lady I know who takes care of everything to my specifications. I'll ask if she's prepared to offer the same service to the members here. Basically, you can get whatever quality you are prepared to pay for...and with whatever fancy trim you require. Regards, Ford

Hi Henry, there are at least 2 specialist kiri-bako shops I know of in Toyko. They will make boxes to spec and in a variety of levels of quality. I order my boxes for all my own work from a similar studio in Shikoku. The quality is absolutely superb and the cost is more reasonable than Tokyo. I pay 6000yen for a tsuba box with a 12mm thick kiri-wood insert which I then cut out to seat the tsuba. I'll get the details of these shops for you and pm them on. regards, Ford

Morning gents, seems to me that the matter was worth delving into after all :D ... Richard, the greater debate I declined to enter into was the classification of tosho and katchushi products based on visual judged, technical criteria. Specifically, the assessment of the metal's composition. As I think I have shown, in my opinion the criteria used are not reliable. It follows, in my mind, that therefore the subsequent hypothesis is unsound. No need for me to debate any further. Guido makes the point that the we ought to concentrate more on the aesthetics of the work, my inclination entirely ... I'd add that the classifications we use should be seen only as useful, but general groupings...and ultimately artificial. I think that, particularly in the earlier periods as Ted has pointed out, we are faced with more regional variation then we probably realise. Attempts to tidy everything up and put things in the correct boxes, are bound to be very subjective. Even the armour maker/sword maker origin is just speculation really... and to be honest I don't buy the idea of swordsmiths knocking out tsuba on their off days from the left overs... but that's a whole other debate I reckon Pete sums it up perfectly ( and Ted seems to me to be of a similar opinion ), Personally, I think Pete's "bottom line" has serious merit.

Thanks for that link, Mike. as you say, very interesting discussion. Without throwing myself into the debate ( as I'm too often keen to do ) I'd just like to offer my commentary on Boris's "empirical" check list for distinguishing iron from steel tsuba. I hope this will be seen in a neutral light and merely as an attempt to establish observational criteria that are more grounded in verifiable data. I've quoted Boris's points and posted my comments after each section to try to keep it all clear. The texture of the metal is completely dependant of the type of hammering it was subjected to and subsequent corrosion…this in no way is indicative of it’s relative hardness. The colour of ferrous alloy corrosion products ( ie; patinae) is more likely to be affected by atmospheric pollutants than its actual carbon content. Colour cannot help define carbon content. Good point, but as the material obviously has large accumulations of carbon it must be classed as a steel…however crude and inhomogeneous. As we’re already agreed, tekkotsu is evidence of higher carbon content….so it must be steel. In fact the difference in ease, or difficulty of execution of refined decoration, whether by file, hammer or chisel is virtually nil. If anything, steel ( as opposed to pure iron ) allows for a far more crisp and precise marks. As I’ve already pointed out, hardness cannot be discerned reliably by visual means alone. Apparent density of the metal could perhaps be discerned but this would be evidence of the degree of working not its composition. The absence of surface decoration tells us nothing about the actual metal only the decision of the maker whether to decorate or not. Again, a purely visual assessment that would be almost completely dependant on the condition of the piece. The suggestion here seems to be that steel is more resistant to corrosion than iron. If anything, there is some evidence that in certain cases the opposite is the case. Further, relative rates of corrosion and evidence of rust are all completely dependant on the conditions the piece has been subject to. All active rust is red anyway, regardless of the steel composition and the likelihood of encountering it is irrelevant to the assessment of an individual item. There may be some value to this observation. More complex folding patterns may indicate a more refined material. I would make the point though, that hardness and abrasion resistance are not the same thing in metallurgical terms. It might be worth considering toughness as a more useful property of a tsuba. Again, we have both definitions claiming the presence of tekkotsu as defining traits….the only difference being the degree of refinement. Both are still steel though. I offer these comments only as my opinion ( albeit back by my experience as a professional craftsman and tsubashi, and my own researches into the working methods of old Japan). I welcome further debate and discussion as part of what I hope could be a useful clarification of this issue. I'm certainly not claiming that my observations are absolutely correct but only that in my view there is, as I trust I have demonstrated, a far from resolved matter to explore. I trust that Boris will read my comments in that spirit. Regards, Ford

appearances can be so deceptive...don't you think? as for feeling a difference when scraping rust...this doesn't really tell us much about carbon content or relative hardness....merely subjective, tactile feedback. Worth making the point and trying to isolate that aspect of empirical "evidence" though....the cigar is on it's way cheers, Ford

just to add to what Brian has found...(which is a good outline ) I think we can be reasonably sure that most ferrous tsuba, of whatever period, are made from a basic, low carbon content steel. Something that isn't all that different in terms of composition from mild steel. There are some analysis's of ferrous tsuba from the late Edo period that in fact show them to be almost without any carbon. I think these are possibly typical of the sort of material used for tsuba that feature a lot of elaborate carving. I'd suggest that certain schools. Akasaka, Myochin, Higo etc( those with more warrior class associations)...were using steel with at least nominal carbon content ( remember that a sword is typically only 0.7% carbon steel, this is the same as basic spring steel, like the stuff on truck suspension leaf springs). I am doubtful of the various claims made about relative hardness and state of tempering etc. I don't believe it possible to discern these details by feel and touch....or sound for that matter. I'm also unaware, despite quite a few years searching, of any serious scientific research into these aspect of steel tsuba. Would you drill out a core sample from a Kanie tsuba? and surface analysis ( by whatever method ) of patinated steel is completely inaccurate so I imagine we'll have to keep guessing Like a lot of the, apparently, technical pronouncements made by tsuba aficionados much is pure speculation and regurgitating of received wisdom. Unfortunately there is little verification of the basic principles of metallurgy or craft practices, which in turn leads to some of the most wildly spurious claims. As the saying goes; " in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king" :D ok....rant over ...normal service will be resumed shortly :| regards, Ford

that's an inflammatory statement if ever I read one....you'll need to qualify that opinion, I think :D ....or there'll be a fatwa on your head issued by the General Council of unbiased Nihontophiles

I'm a sucker for tradition....perhaps I should adopt this way of doing business myself :D

very odd combination of seal characters, sosho script and semi cursive kanji...and a dodgy looking horse possibly a patriotic exhortation dating from the early part of last century...Japan/Russian war maybe

...could he be this friendly chap?

I ran across that site myself while ago....it does look a bit dodgy to say the least. He also seems to have his finger in quite a lot of different pies. I found this photo on his site too....a much younger Mr Haynes ... I think his halo is slipping and those weird emanations from behind his head are a bit alarming

thanks for those images, John. I think that the crumpled bit can certainly be minimised if not completely straightened out. The only fly in the ointment is the worn nanako...it's almost impossible to put back once it's damaged. I'd use hardwood punches and make a steel mandrel to match the inside. The gilding and patina present no particular problems. Hope this helps. regards, Ford

Hi John, in general terms art is both conserved and restored. The boundaries tend to blur a bit and in the commercial world the deciding factor is usually the cost of a satisfactory job versus the profit margin. It is impossible to make any further comment really, without speaking about a specific case. It does sound though, as if your piece has been battered to within an inch of it's life ...makes you wonder at the sensibilities of the philistine responsible.

This is a genuine Kiyotoshi tsuba, most of you will probably know it well from "Lethal Elegance". I think the difference in technique and quality is fairly well evident. Sorry John...but I think you already know this. :? There are a few more examples, both of the school and Kiyotoshi's work, on the MFA website. Tanaka Kiyotoshi was a friend of Kano Natsuo's and his work is of a similarly, very high, standard. I also don't think the "special order" addition to the mei is in the slightest way convincing. From my experience this is exactly the sort of extra detail fakers try to employ to deceive the gullible. It's merely a bit of advertising, it's telling you directly, that it's a special piece...sadly though, the tsuba itself tells a different story. This is a perfectly credible, very late tsuba, made for the tourist market probably, but that is all. The "mei" is just part of the decoration and in all likelihood was added at the request of an unscrupulous dealer who knew full well that ignorant Westerners wanted pretty tsuba with the signatures of famous artists on them. If this was a sword you would examine the workmanship and general quality of the blade before considering the mei....why is this practice not followed with regards to tsuba and other fittings? Copying a mei is probably the easiest part of making a convincing copy...getting the technique, style and skill right is where all the differences appear.

which is a good indicator of the blade being a gendaito....I don't think the blade itself is in question. My hesitancy is with reference to the mei. My contention is that it is a fairly recent, and spurious, addition. Ford

I wasn't referring to the first image being flipped. The second image clearly shows a number of very obvious errors and sloppy stroke alignments. The actually punch marks look very hesitant and irregular to my eye. Could this be evidence that whoever made the mei hadn't had much practice?

The "volcano's" on the reverse of the tsuba are most likely fishing nets set out to dry. The little chap on the front is a fisherman pulling a net in. A famous print by Hokusai showing a fisherman hauling in his nets... and this print by Hiroshige shows some nets drying ...and while I hate to be the "bad cop" but is it only me who thinks this mei is a bit "wobbly" ? :?